The Last Jedi vs. The Undiscovered Country (Spoilers Allowed))

[Yukaphile]

I guess I'm still a bit shaken by your decision long ago to cease all communications with me and cite me as "illogical." Sorry. Got me a bit on edge.

You might have a point there. I mean, it... kind of... would gel well with the Prime Directive, and it is a foreign, enemy power.

Which is pretty much what Mark Hamill himself thinks. See #MissedOpportunities.

[Darth Wedgius]

People change, but if Luke's changed that much, then the Luke Skywalker we wanted to see simply wasn't in the TLJ.

I am curious how you would had wanted to see Luke Skywalker to be like in TLJ because I don't share your opinion about this so naturally I don't know how you see him to be like. Maybe it will help me to understand were you are coming from with your opinion.

IMHO, Luke quickly became an optimistic character through the original trilogy. At the start he hated the Empire, but he accepted the Empire's existence as something he couldn't do anything about. Then he blew up a Death Star, which may have changed his mind.

Even when told that going to Bespin was a mistake, he had to do it. Those were his friends in danger, and he had to do something about it, even if it was just him and R2, even if his training wasn't complete, even if the person telling him it was stupid was the one he went to for training.

In RotJ he faced Vader and a lot of stormtroopers alone, hoping to redeem him, even when, again, everyone told him it was futile, and when it turned out that those people that told him that going to Bespin was stupid were right. And when he is being space-wizard-zapped to death, he still holds out hope with a desperate "Father..."

If in TLJ he decided that a nasty but momentary mistake couldn't be fixed and ran away, it seems to me that he lost a lot of the optimism that he'd gained.

I think I would have preferred this:

Luke ignites the saber and briefly thinks of cutting down Ben in his sleep. Ben runs away, and Snoke is ready for him, taking him off-world. Luke runs after Ben and is captured. It was a trap. He should have listened to Akbar.

Rey finds him in a prison and says she's here to rescue him. "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?" Turns out, he doesn't want to be rescued; Ben is there, and he was after Ben, so why would he want to go somewhere else? Expectations subverted without breaking a character. But now Rey is there too, so Luke has to escape to save her, and he and Rey do so, together, with Luke noting that Rey has a lot of raw power but needs training.

Maybe she's Yoda's daughter. Muppetness might be recessive?

And it leaves the mystery of why Snoke was already set up to "help" Ben. Because Snoke gave that vision to Luke. It was a possible future, but it's one Snoke set in motion, using Luke. Snoke is as dangerous as Vader but not the same as Vader; he's more subtle. He sees the futures with uncommon clarity even for a Force-user, and uses that with exceptional skill. The First Order grew victorious in part because he knew where to push and when.

They get into a situation where they can't get out. Luke tells Rey two things: One, not to blame herself. The odds were against him ever being able to help Ben, but he couldn't not try. And, second, foolish as it is: Help Ben. If she can. Luke dies helping Rey and the band that got her there escape. Before Ben strikes him down, Ben mocks him. "Tell me how you'll only grow in power." Luke's response? "I'm sorry. I forgive you. And so does Han."

[Darth Wedgius]

I guess I'm still a bit shaken by your decision long ago to cease all communications with me and cite me as "illogical." Sorry. Got me a bit on edge.

You might have a point there. I mean, it... kind of... would gel well with the Prime Directive, and it is a foreign, enemy power.

Which is pretty much what Mark Hamill himself thinks. See #MissedOpportunities.

Don't take that too much to heart, Yukaphile. It meant that I thought arguing with you wouldn't help, not that you're a bad person. And.... You seemed a little fragile for a while there, and I didn't want to contribute. You seem to be doing better now, though.

[Mecha82]

Ah I see. Well now I understand what you are saying which good. After all while we might not agree with something there is no reason for us not to try to understand each other.

I wouldn't compare Snoke to Vader not just because he wanted Ben to be next Vader but also because he was old force user. Maybe older than either Plagues or Sidious and he was calling to Sidious after Clone Wars.

[Darth Wedgius]

Ah I see. Well now I understand what you are saying which good. After all while we might not agree with something there is no reason for us not to try to understand each other.

I wouldn't compare Snoke to Vader not just because he wanted Ben to be next Vader but also because he was old force user. Maybe older than either Plagues or Sidious and he was calling to Sidious after Clone Wars.

No worries -- different people see different things in the characters, and it can be subtle.

I never saw Clone Wars; I basically wanted Snoke like that to have a Big Bad who was as scary as Vader but in a different way, and if it could explain how the First Order was doing so well, all the better. But if the Clone Wars went a different way then I withdraw, um, everything about him, pleading massive ignorance on my part. Which, come to think of it, probably isn't a very good defense for this.

[Mecha82]

No worries. It's one of those things in lore that most people aren't familiar with because it's only in extra material meant to explain things and it was never said in movies.

[Yukaphile]

@Darth Wedgius Oh yeah, loads better. XD This place kind of became more permanent to me after I lost my standing in the poparena community and the Screwattack forums shut down. I'd never planned to make it permanent here, but... well, there ya go.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

@Darth Wedgius Oh yeah, loads better. XD This place kind of became more permanent to me after I lost my standing in the poparena community and the Screwattack forums shut down. I'd never planned to make it permanent here, but... well, there ya go.

I heard about that. That was you?

[Yukaphile]

Eh?