So Having watched this episode again, for reasons that escape me entirely, a few questions came to mind.
Nog is an academy graduate, a commissioned Starfleet officer, and a combat veteran. Waters was still a cadet who'd been given a battlefield commission. the question is, how absolute was water's authority? Sure he had the loyalty of his crew and they'd follow him without question, but wouldn't Nog have technically outranked or at the very least stood at equal rank with him enough to be in a position to speak up and perhaps prevent Water's from dooming his ship and crew?
I'm not really an expert on the rules governing the commissioning of officers, but I seriously doubt if Waters brought the Valiant back to the federation or if they encountered Sisko and the Defiant, that his battlefield commission would be considered permanent (Nog's increased rank wasn't after this episode). At the very least he'd get a commendation for saving his crew and probably be made a full Ensign.
Which brings me to a point that could have actually made the episode more interesting and slightly less stupid. What if Nog did outrank Waters? what if Waters hadn't been given a battlefield commission and Red Squad were all still just a bunch of cadets who despite their whole high and mighty persona, are in over their heads and in desperate need of a leader? Nog, as the only officer, would have to take command according to regulations and the episode would be about him having to lead this group of cadets as they have to fight their way out of Dominion space. It would be a great chapter in Nog's story art, to reverse the original situation where Nog idolized these cadets, only to find that after his patience, hard work, and experience, he's become someone who should be worthy of their admiration.
Instead of it being an all around happy "Nog is victorious" plot, the episode plays out mostly as it did in the original story, with Nog leading to the best of his ability as they try to fight their way back to federation space. He can butt heads with Waters, whose overconfident and wants to stay and fight, but ultimately Nog asserts his authority when Jake tells him that his father is always confident and never lets anyone question him, and so manages to talk Waters down and earn his respect. They manage to defeat one or two jem hadar ships, only to come up against the battleship and Despite Nog's best efforts, the Valiant is still destroyed and once again only Jake, Nog, and few cadets make it out alive and are rescued by the Defiant.
In the epilogue Nog finds himself troubled by what happened, thinking he failed as a leader and a Starfleet officer, maybe even a discussion with jake about the Kobayashi Maru test and how Nog never actually got to take it till he was experiencing the real thing. But when Sisko calls him in to discuss things after reading the logs and talking to Jake and the surviving cadets, he's surprised when Sisko tells him that he's concluded that Nog actually did a good job, that despite the circumstances, he performed his duties to the letter admirably and that he's noted that in his record. When Nog expresses confusion because he lost the Valiant and people died, Sisko reminds him that being a good captain doesn't mean you will always win the day, meaning that Nog technically did get to take the Kobayashi Maru after all and passed.
It would have been a good bit of character development, pretty much do what Voyager failed to do when Harry got to play captain for an episode, broaden Nog's perspective so he can be a better officer in time for AR-558, making his loss of that confidence harder to bear in Paper moon, and ultimately making it more rewarding when he regains it. Overall explain better to the audience how this short ferengi kid started out as an annoying brat only to go on to be a Lieutenant and from the looks of things, likely O' Brien's replacement as chief operations officer of DS9.
Star Trek (DS9): Valiant
Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant
It is a bit ambiguous, because while I can definitely see the former captain transferring captaincy of the ship to Watters, it is hard to see that he would've promoted him directly to Captain rank. While the episode states that it was a battlefield commission, in an interview later, Ron Moore was asked this question (Interview here: http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm980604.htm) , and it seems to support the other interpretation that he was just acting Captain, but still would be considered a Cadet. Also in that interview, he says the reason Nog couldn't take command is that because Watters was given the captaincy lawfully, he could only be removed from command by a flag officer in this situation. In either case, if they returned, I doubt any of the crews' inflated ranks would've held.
Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant
I've always thought that Watters was such an Egomaniac that even if the million to one shot had held and they had somehow defeated the battleship, he STILL wouldn't have returned to Federation space. There was no way that he- in his mind, a hero on a par with Kirk or Picard- would allow HIS ship, HIS command and HIS rank be taken away by some pencil-pushing admiral. he'd have found a way in his head to justify staying behind enemy lines for the entire damned war, and the sheep he had following him would eat up every word he said.
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Mickey_Rat15
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Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant
I think part of the issue is that Nog is rather green himself and did not have the confidence to challenge Watters even if he were inclined to do so, despite having a more regular commission and he is rather impressed with the Valiant's story. A more experienced officer like Dax or Worf might be a little more inclined to put a jumped up cadet on notice for putting themselves at unnecessary risk no matter what kind of battlefield commission they have .
A managed democracy is a wonderful thing... for the managers... and its greatest strength is a 'free press' when 'free' is defined as 'responsible' and the managers define what is 'irresponsible'.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress
― Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress
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FakeGeekGirl
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Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant
The problem is Nog is such a young officer himself, and had been so enamored with Red Squad as a student. Yes, anyone even a little older would have pulled rank and taken control, or at least tried to, and Nog technically should have. But it makes sense for his character in that point and time to fall in with the Valiant's mentality.
And it's supposed to be stupid. The senseless tragedy of it is the point. War isn't a child's game and Starfleet, for years, had set these kids up to fail in a war situation. This episode is one of the most brutal deconstructions of the Starfleet of the early TNG era, or at least that's how I interpret it.
It's also a pretty harsh deconstruction of the whole "teen hero" subgenre of fanfiction, whether intentionally or not (I have no idea if Ron Moore was aware of the fanfiction being written and to what extent).
On an unrelated note, my mother, a teacher for twenty-something years, is still mad at me for showing her this one. She felt bad for the actual captain of the ship since he meant Waters to get the others home and inadvertantly doomed them all by giving power to a narcissist ... that hit close to home for her.
And it's supposed to be stupid. The senseless tragedy of it is the point. War isn't a child's game and Starfleet, for years, had set these kids up to fail in a war situation. This episode is one of the most brutal deconstructions of the Starfleet of the early TNG era, or at least that's how I interpret it.
It's also a pretty harsh deconstruction of the whole "teen hero" subgenre of fanfiction, whether intentionally or not (I have no idea if Ron Moore was aware of the fanfiction being written and to what extent).
On an unrelated note, my mother, a teacher for twenty-something years, is still mad at me for showing her this one. She felt bad for the actual captain of the ship since he meant Waters to get the others home and inadvertantly doomed them all by giving power to a narcissist ... that hit close to home for her.
Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant
Speaking as a former Warrant Officer myself, I can answer some of these issues. This episode is a glaring example of how horrendously unprofessional Starfleet, as a service (whether you think it's a military or not) is.
Nog, as a commissioned officer, had the duty and the right and the authority and everything else in the book to stop Red Squad, commandeer the Valiant, and return her and her crew back to Starfleet as fast as possible. By rights, the Valiant should never have ever been assigned to a trainee crew like this. It defies not only logic, but every moral and ethical principle. The job of those cadets was to get that ship back to friendly hands so that a seasoned crew can operate it. It's yet another reason that he doesn't, and isn't court-martialed for Dereliction of Duty, Insubordination, Conspiracy, and Conduct Unbecoming, that I don't take Starfleet very seriously TNG onward.
Waters may have had a battlefield commission, but where was his orders giving him authority to wage war on his own as he did? Further, even if he somehow outranked Nog, Nog STILL has his duty to look to as a commissioned officer. He can't just let Waters go off like he does without any orders from on high. What you saw here was an act of piracy on the part of Waters and the cadets of Red Squad. And given that Red Squad is supposed to be this elite corps of cadets, that means that Starfleet does not instill the most important thing necessary for any officer, and that is the Chain of Command.
The Chain of Command is considered sacred by real officers. They don't up and violate it on their own, not without a damn good reason, and there was none here. The pretext of Initiative, being an officer trait, is somewhat implied here (I don't remember if it was at all mentioned - I have to review the episode in its entirety again), but that doesn't mean you use your own initiative when you have no official mission or orders. The only valid use of Initiative here would be to get that ship back to Starfleet Command HQ in whatever way they could. That would've been in their duty to do, as cadets. Waters ought to have known that, but because he doesn't, that means he's internalized something radically different, and makes Starfleet Academy a sick joke.
If Waters brought the Valiant back to Starfleet, it's not likely that he'd keep his battlefield commission unless the situation in the war were that dire that they'd need his services as a leader. Likely as not, he might be fasttracked, put on a ship where his experience and talents might be useful, but as a cadet.
The reason we train people through basic training, officer candidacy and warrant officer candidacy schools, is so that they learn the whys and wherefores and hows of being soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines and officers in general. The military, first and foremost, is a great big team, and that team can't always afford mavericks running off doing their own thing. They plan missions meticulously in order to coordinate combat forces to the best possible outcomes. His dedication and privileges of being in an elite corps of students like Red Squad would be taken into consideration, but he'd still likely only be a cadet until he proved he could shoulder the burden of being an officer more fully. Running off as he does until Nog gets there could even likely be such a scandal that it kicks him out of the Academy, or ends up like Wesley, having to redo another year of school.
The real military operates in certain ways in order to accomplish missions, and if Starfleet Academy isn't teaching that, there's a lot wrong with it. Waters ought to have known this, along with everyone aboard that ship (including and especially Jake, the son of a Starfleet Officer himself). Imagine in WWII a group of cadets are in a submarine and they decide to attack the Imperial Japanese Navy on their own like they did. They might decide, as Waters does, to attack big targets like battleships and carriers, but professional US Navy sub captains were ordered, in general, to go after any Japanese target of opportunity, but most especially supply and cargo vessels, because every one of those lost hurt the Japanese war effort more than losing a capital ship. Capital ships can be replaced quite readily if the enemy has the resources, but if they lose vital resources during the war effort, such as supplies to troops on islands like Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Tarawa, and others, that's supplies that isn't going to help their troops defend those islands from the Allies. Those sub captains have their missions, and the cadets (midshipmen in this case) wouldn't, and therefore the Navy wouldn't know where the heck they are, or be able to support them.
Another thing: The show says that Waters was given a Battlefield Commission and then he subsequently gave commissions to other cadets as well. I don't know how Starfleet does things, but in real militaries, just because you're given a Battlefield Commission doesn't mean you have the authority to promote people. If you're in command, you have the privilege of assigning anyone you want to any post, but that doesn't mean they necessarily get a rank (one of my main peeves with TNG and Voyager - a Captain doesn't really have the authority to grant ranks). A military rank is bestowed by the government of that military, in the US Military's case signed (through proxies) by the Secretary of the pertaining military branch. This is done to solidify the chain of command structure and quickly settle any disputes among officers and enlisted on who's in charge in case there's nobody officially in command of the unit. An officer's rank is to denote his experience and merit within the military in general, and allows him certain privileges. But if you have a cadet who's only had a battlefield commission, and he meets up with anyone with a full commission, he has to obey the lawful orders of the commissioned officer because he's got his rank through the force of law.
Nog, as a commissioned officer, had the duty and the right and the authority and everything else in the book to stop Red Squad, commandeer the Valiant, and return her and her crew back to Starfleet as fast as possible. By rights, the Valiant should never have ever been assigned to a trainee crew like this. It defies not only logic, but every moral and ethical principle. The job of those cadets was to get that ship back to friendly hands so that a seasoned crew can operate it. It's yet another reason that he doesn't, and isn't court-martialed for Dereliction of Duty, Insubordination, Conspiracy, and Conduct Unbecoming, that I don't take Starfleet very seriously TNG onward.
Waters may have had a battlefield commission, but where was his orders giving him authority to wage war on his own as he did? Further, even if he somehow outranked Nog, Nog STILL has his duty to look to as a commissioned officer. He can't just let Waters go off like he does without any orders from on high. What you saw here was an act of piracy on the part of Waters and the cadets of Red Squad. And given that Red Squad is supposed to be this elite corps of cadets, that means that Starfleet does not instill the most important thing necessary for any officer, and that is the Chain of Command.
The Chain of Command is considered sacred by real officers. They don't up and violate it on their own, not without a damn good reason, and there was none here. The pretext of Initiative, being an officer trait, is somewhat implied here (I don't remember if it was at all mentioned - I have to review the episode in its entirety again), but that doesn't mean you use your own initiative when you have no official mission or orders. The only valid use of Initiative here would be to get that ship back to Starfleet Command HQ in whatever way they could. That would've been in their duty to do, as cadets. Waters ought to have known that, but because he doesn't, that means he's internalized something radically different, and makes Starfleet Academy a sick joke.
If Waters brought the Valiant back to Starfleet, it's not likely that he'd keep his battlefield commission unless the situation in the war were that dire that they'd need his services as a leader. Likely as not, he might be fasttracked, put on a ship where his experience and talents might be useful, but as a cadet.
The reason we train people through basic training, officer candidacy and warrant officer candidacy schools, is so that they learn the whys and wherefores and hows of being soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines and officers in general. The military, first and foremost, is a great big team, and that team can't always afford mavericks running off doing their own thing. They plan missions meticulously in order to coordinate combat forces to the best possible outcomes. His dedication and privileges of being in an elite corps of students like Red Squad would be taken into consideration, but he'd still likely only be a cadet until he proved he could shoulder the burden of being an officer more fully. Running off as he does until Nog gets there could even likely be such a scandal that it kicks him out of the Academy, or ends up like Wesley, having to redo another year of school.
The real military operates in certain ways in order to accomplish missions, and if Starfleet Academy isn't teaching that, there's a lot wrong with it. Waters ought to have known this, along with everyone aboard that ship (including and especially Jake, the son of a Starfleet Officer himself). Imagine in WWII a group of cadets are in a submarine and they decide to attack the Imperial Japanese Navy on their own like they did. They might decide, as Waters does, to attack big targets like battleships and carriers, but professional US Navy sub captains were ordered, in general, to go after any Japanese target of opportunity, but most especially supply and cargo vessels, because every one of those lost hurt the Japanese war effort more than losing a capital ship. Capital ships can be replaced quite readily if the enemy has the resources, but if they lose vital resources during the war effort, such as supplies to troops on islands like Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Tarawa, and others, that's supplies that isn't going to help their troops defend those islands from the Allies. Those sub captains have their missions, and the cadets (midshipmen in this case) wouldn't, and therefore the Navy wouldn't know where the heck they are, or be able to support them.
Another thing: The show says that Waters was given a Battlefield Commission and then he subsequently gave commissions to other cadets as well. I don't know how Starfleet does things, but in real militaries, just because you're given a Battlefield Commission doesn't mean you have the authority to promote people. If you're in command, you have the privilege of assigning anyone you want to any post, but that doesn't mean they necessarily get a rank (one of my main peeves with TNG and Voyager - a Captain doesn't really have the authority to grant ranks). A military rank is bestowed by the government of that military, in the US Military's case signed (through proxies) by the Secretary of the pertaining military branch. This is done to solidify the chain of command structure and quickly settle any disputes among officers and enlisted on who's in charge in case there's nobody officially in command of the unit. An officer's rank is to denote his experience and merit within the military in general, and allows him certain privileges. But if you have a cadet who's only had a battlefield commission, and he meets up with anyone with a full commission, he has to obey the lawful orders of the commissioned officer because he's got his rank through the force of law.
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griffeytrek
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Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant
This is a big part of what is going on there. Nog is all alone in Starfleet. The lone of his kind. He is at the bottom most tier of anything. Coming from a life that has suddenly revealed that the tiers do in fact go up. At that stage Nog had tremendous technical skills. But he did not yet have his confidence yet to stand up and take command away from what appeared to be an abnormally but functionally crewed ship, led by his idle. By teh end he is deeply shattered and regretting not taking stronger actions. To force his authority upon what he now realizes are mutineers. And thats why Watters needs to get him out of there. Nog is starting to get his confidence, get his feet under him. He has become a threat to Watters happy little dream. Nog is not unaware of that threat, the way a standard Frderation officer would be.Mickey_Rat15 wrote:I think part of the issue is that Nog is rather green himself and did not have the confidence to challenge Watters even if he were inclined to do so, despite having a more regular commission and he is rather impressed with the Valiant's story. A more experienced officer like Dax or Worf might be a little more inclined to put a jumped up cadet on notice for putting themselves at unnecessary risk no matter what kind of battlefield commission they have .
Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant
That's true. Nog didn't have the confidence necessary to stand up to these illustrious cadets. That's more of a failure of proper indoctrination, because apparently Starfleet Academy doesn't believe in that. Indoctrination is an ugly word, but all military forces use it in order to get its members to understand and live out their duties in the service. Case in point, saluting an officer: This is rather basic for anyone in any military service, but when you first go into the service without any prior training (such as JROTC), you might feel rather uncomfortable about doing it. Or calling all officers "sir," or "ma'am," if they outrank you. You never call a superior officer by their rank unless that is the custom, such as Captain aboard a ship. If you want to address an officer by their rank, you say their name as well, such as Lt. Smith. This is all part of indoctrination into the culture of the service, in order to promote the culture of the Chain of Command as well as instilling discipline and morale (morale, by the way, is not happiness, but the willingness to do what is required of you).griffeytrek wrote:This is a big part of what is going on there. Nog is all alone in Starfleet. The lone of his kind. He is at the bottom most tier of anything. Coming from a life that has suddenly revealed that the tiers do in fact go up. At that stage Nog had tremendous technical skills. But he did not yet have his confidence yet to stand up and take command away from what appeared to be an abnormally but functionally crewed ship, led by his idle. By teh end he is deeply shattered and regretting not taking stronger actions. To force his authority upon what he now realizes are mutineers. And thats why Watters needs to get him out of there. Nog is starting to get his confidence, get his feet under him. He has become a threat to Watters happy little dream. Nog is not unaware of that threat, the way a standard Frderation officer would be.Mickey_Rat15 wrote:I think part of the issue is that Nog is rather green himself and did not have the confidence to challenge Watters even if he were inclined to do so, despite having a more regular commission and he is rather impressed with the Valiant's story. A more experienced officer like Dax or Worf might be a little more inclined to put a jumped up cadet on notice for putting themselves at unnecessary risk no matter what kind of battlefield commission they have .
One other little niggle I don't see much of in Starfleet is an NCO corps. We only see Chief O'Brien and maybe a couple of others. This is kind of important because Nog doesn't have anyone to order about on a regular basis as required of his duties as an officer. This probably contributes to his lack of confidence in himself as both an officer and a leader. Nog would never dare dream of pulling rank on Chief O'Brien, because of O'Brien's own rank and position, his experience, and his time of service. As a Warrant Officer when I was in the Army, though I outrank every NCO in the Army to include the Sergeant Major of the Army, I would similarly never want to pull rank on a Sergeant Major or a 1st Sergeant unless I absolutely had no choice. This is more a matter of respect and propriety than it is about rank and organization. I came very close once, but fortunately I didn't have to once I explained the situation to the Sergeant Major, and he made the decision I was about to make.
Still, Nog's lack of discipline in this regard to his duties as an officer is a big issue. I wouldn't charge him with any criminal issues, given his situation and his lack of confidence, but I would have to give him remedial training if I were Captain Sisko, if only to give him the confidence he so needs. I'd get with Chief O'Brien on this, and have him present a situation where he forces Nog to give him an order. Then he'd smile and say, "Aye Aye Sir," and promptly obey. Since Starfleet Academy won't install the proper doctrine in the new officers, it's up to men like Sisko and O'Brien to do it for the good of the service.
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Revolverman
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Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant
Its funny you bring that up, as in another thread, there was a big debate on what the NCO ranks meant in Starfleet, as O'Brian had Ensigns (and I think a few times, a Lieutenant as underlings. Which is its own can of worms.MaxWylde wrote: One other little niggle I don't see much of in Starfleet is an NCO corps..
Re: Star Trek (DS9): Valiant
In addition to Nog being green, not confident enough to stand up to Waters and having been enamoured with Red Squad as a cadet, wasn't it established that he'd been promoted to Ensing/graduated early due to Starfleet trying to fill out the ranks quickly? As such that'd enhance the greeness/lack of confidence.
Also, side note on the Waters losing his battlefield promotion when he got home, even though that's what should have happened, unless there was a change in rules between Kirk's era and the TNG era, the 2009 film retroactively implies that he'd have kept that rank and probably that ship (of course that was just as stupid for Kirk to keep his battlefield promotion)
Also, side note on the Waters losing his battlefield promotion when he got home, even though that's what should have happened, unless there was a change in rules between Kirk's era and the TNG era, the 2009 film retroactively implies that he'd have kept that rank and probably that ship (of course that was just as stupid for Kirk to keep his battlefield promotion)
