Police: please don’t sell milkshakes to anti-fascists

[clearspira]

I’ll be quoting from this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Independence_Party

With “reticence”, Farage has claimed there is a “fifth column” of Muslims who, while “mercifully small”, plan to “destroy our whole civilization”. He calls upon Western nations to “embrace our Judeo-Christian heritage”, and UKIP itself cites a “serious existential crisis” due to the “Islamification” of Britain.
A percentage of an audience primed by these beliefs, shown an image of long lines of Muslim immigrants, will read this as “the end is nigh act now”. And that’s how beating Muslims in the streets and the murder of Jo Cox happen.
The climate of terror is logistically helpful to Farage. They can’t very well claim to be accomplishing anything if their supporters still see Immigrants day to day, but the climate of terror let’s them say “we’re fighting back, we’ve driven them out of our towns, but the big cities are still full of them! The fight goes on! Please donate.”

Your rhetorical point was “bet you wouldn’t Like it if the gays were milkshaked!!” Whilst willfully ignoring that LGBTQ folk routinely and more frequently in the age of neo-fascism suffer violence already. There’s no *if* in that statement. Just the likelihood that Farage and his associates are making it worse.

Dracul: do you really want to suggest we employ the *proven* solution to fascism? I’d rather see if we can prevent their power from solidifying through milkshakes and legal action first.

For someone not from the UK you seem to know a lot about what certain groups are or are not doing.
Cant beat a bit of second hand information

[Yukaphile]

I mean, we still live in a homophobic, transphobic world. I still know center righters who think just because gay marriage is here, it's over. That there's no more work to do on this.

[CmdrKing]

*shrug* UK fascists are funded by Americans, their primary sympathetic news outlets are out of Australia, and google turned out stories with stats comparable to the US in the top result. Whatever differences once existed between the two countries culturally have been minimized by modern mass media.

[Darth Wedgius]

I’ll be quoting from this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Independence_Party

With “reticence”, Farage has claimed there is a “fifth column” of Muslims who, while “mercifully small”, plan to “destroy our whole civilization”. He calls upon Western nations to “embrace our Judeo-Christian heritage”, and UKIP itself cites a “serious existential crisis” due to the “Islamification” of Britain.
A percentage of an audience primed by these beliefs, shown an image of long lines of Muslim immigrants, will read this as “the end is nigh act now”. And that’s how beating Muslims in the streets and the murder of Jo Cox happen.
The climate of terror is logistically helpful to Farage. They can’t very well claim to be accomplishing anything if their supporters still see Immigrants day to day, but the climate of terror let’s them say “we’re fighting back, we’ve driven them out of our towns, but the big cities are still full of them! The fight goes on! Please donate.”

Your rhetorical point was “bet you wouldn’t Like it if the gays were milkshaked!!” Whilst willfully ignoring that LGBTQ folk routinely and more frequently in the age of neo-fascism suffer violence already. There’s no *if* in that statement. Just the likelihood that Farage and his associates are making it worse.

Dracul: do you really want to suggest we employ the *proven* solution to fascism? I’d rather see if we can prevent their power from solidifying through milkshakes and legal action first.

Four in ten British Muslims want some aspects of Sharia law enforced, and over half think homosexuality should be illegal. That's not "destroying civilization" in the literal sense of "destroying cities," but it sounds like a large minority of British Muslims want radical change to the national norms. You can consider it horrific to say, but facts don't care about feelings.

Yes, I willfully ignored that gays suffer worse than milkshaking, because it was beside the point. If a gay man is murdered it doesn't make a milkshaking any better. Your point was a non-sequitur.

As far as "neo-fascist" goes, what authoritarian actions has Farage taken?

[CmdrKing]

Oh? Last I looked opposition to LGBTQ education was a unifying element between religious Muslims and religious Christians in the UK: https://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/Teac ... ath-threat

Meanwhilst "Sharia Law" is an inexpressably broad topic. I mean, as recently as 2008 the entire UK still had Blasphemy Laws on the books, yet we don't generally refer to all british case law with some scary moniker like Fundamentalist Taboo.
To be sure elements of Muslim case law are pretty horrible, but others are just slightly different approaches to common elements like contract law and the like and having those contracts recognized by the government is an unvarnished good. Without a more detailed analysis of what people were being asked and how they parsed or explained their reasoning, saying 40% supported "Sharia Law" is meaningless except in highlighting that 60% of UK Muslims seemingly want to assimilate entirely!

----

You used "you wouldn't like if milkshakes were thrown at gay people" as a rhetorical gotcha. Then call the fact that LGBTQ people are routinely targeted with physical violence a nonsequitor and claim victory because the actual point ("milkshakes are a marked improvement upon the current state of affairs and it's impossible to analyse the effects of such an action upon the community what with all the actual violence") flew over your head. Sounds about right.

----

So we can no longer spot a fascist before they ascend to power? They have to actually kill people from a position of authority to count as fascists? Well shit, may as well delete history, clearly it's no longer serving the purpose of being a useful tool to learn from.

[Madner Kami]

I think it's a grave mistake to ascribe Farage to a particular political agenda. He's in for his own benefit and he'll happily take any controversial position, if he has the impression that it gives him a nice cozy place where he doesn't have to do anything, but spit on a couple of people. He's an agitator and not much more.

[Darth Wedgius]

Oh? Last I looked opposition to LGBTQ education was a unifying element between religious Muslims and religious Christians in the UK: https://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/Teac ... ath-threat

When did I say anything about opposing LGBTQ education? I mentioned that most British Muslims want to make homosexuality illegal. If you look up "straw man" it may help you avoid making this kind of mistake in the future.

Meanwhilst "Sharia Law" is an inexpressably broad topic. I mean, as recently as 2008 the entire UK still had Blasphemy Laws on the books, yet we don't generally refer to all british case law with some scary moniker like Fundamentalist Taboo.
To be sure elements of Muslim case law are pretty horrible, but others are just slightly different approaches to common elements like contract law and the like and having those contracts recognized by the government is an unvarnished good. Without a more detailed analysis of what people were being asked and how they parsed or explained their reasoning, saying 40% supported "Sharia Law" is meaningless except in highlighting that 60% of UK Muslims seemingly want to assimilate entirely!

I did not say which parts of Shariah law they want implemented, but my point is that a large minority wants to make the change to implement parts of Shariah law. And there is a difference between wanting to assimilate entirely and not wanting to implement Shariah law; surely you must understand this. I hope.

You used "you wouldn't like if milkshakes were thrown at gay people" as a rhetorical gotcha. Then call the fact that LGBTQ people are routinely targeted with physical violence a nonsequitor and claim victory because the actual point ("milkshakes are a marked improvement upon the current state of affairs and it's impossible to analyse the effects of such an action upon the community what with all the actual violence") flew over your head. Sounds about right.

Yes, it's a non-sequitur. If someone threw milkshakes at gays would you be applauding them? I don't know how to make it any easier for you to understand. Nor did I "declare victory" -- Fuzzy said he wouldn't be that bothered by it, and I took him at his word.

So we can no longer spot a fascist before they ascend to power? They have to actually kill people from a position of authority to count as fascists? Well shit, may as well delete history, clearly it's no longer serving the purpose of being a useful tool to learn from.

Well, they could propose authoritarian measures, couldn't they? They could speak in favor of death camps or oppressing speech or that everyone must work for the glory of the great leader or something fascist other than saying that some people often have different values and can't be taken in without limit. Did you not think of that? Instead, you seem to be jumping from "Hitler spoke against some people" to "speaking against any group (except whites or men, perhaps) means you're fascist."

[CmdrKing]

The whizzing sound of points going over your head is deafening.

*ahem*

The Muslims who want to make homosexuality illegal have no shortage of allies among anglo christians.

Their being Muslim is not the issue, and their adhering to a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam is matched by fundamentalist interpretation of Christianity amongst anglo UK citizens.
Indeed, if the UK is *anything* like the US in this regard (and usually they are), I'd expect that 40% fundamentalist figure to be similar among Christians.
And thus, it's not a Muslim problem, it's a Conservative Religious Fundamentalist problem.
And therefore is not undermining some sacred British Culture. Indeed, looks to me they're fitting in just fine.

Sharia Law: get me the study they used to produce that figure. It is troubling taken in the absolute worst possible case but the term is so broad we cannot reasonably conclude that is true without looking at the study.

Fascism: I layed out pretty succinctly the definition I was using under which Farage and co qualified. If you want to dispute that I can't stop you, but demanding that fascists not-yet-in-power meet the same standards as 1945 Nazis is pretty laughable.
For starters you are aware the extermination camps were a (perhaps poorly guarded) secret? That until the Allies took them over nobody believed escapees and survivors? That the full depths of Nazi depravity weren't known until after Nuremberg?
Shit, they didn't even start the ghettos and revocation of citizenry for Jews until the early 30s after they'd been in power a couple years.
So we're looking at the rhetoric, the tactics, where the money is coming from, the actions of politicians who DO have power that Farage has been in contact with, and all those signs paint very troubling pictures indeed. As noted way upthread, the only sensible scenario under which Farage isn't a fascist is if it's pure grift and he's just using the tools of fascism to enrich himself, which I can hardly discount.
It's just irrelevant in terms of pure real-world impact. Pretend fascist conmen still employ the same stochastic terror as true believers.

[Robovski]

You have another thing coming if you think there are lots of "Conservative Religious Fundamentalist" in the UK, one of the more secular societies in the west.

The people I see acting like fascists are the ones preventing free speech and assaulting people, ironically the people that claim to be against fascism, but that's Regressives for you.

[Darth Wedgius]

The whizzing sound of points going over your head is deafening.

*ahem*

The Muslims who want to make homosexuality illegal have no shortage of allies among anglo christians.

Their being Muslim is not the issue, and their adhering to a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam is matched by fundamentalist interpretation of Christianity amongst anglo UK citizens.
Indeed, if the UK is *anything* like the US in this regard (and usually they are), I'd expect that 40% fundamentalist figure to be similar among Christians.
And thus, it's not a Muslim problem, it's a Conservative Religious Fundamentalist problem.
And therefore is not undermining some sacred British Culture. Indeed, looks to me they're fitting in just fine.

Sharia Law: get me the study they used to produce that figure. It is troubling taken in the absolute worst possible case but the term is so broad we cannot reasonably conclude that is true without looking at the study.

Fascism: I layed out pretty succinctly the definition I was using under which Farage and co qualified. If you want to dispute that I can't stop you, but demanding that fascists not-yet-in-power meet the same standards as 1945 Nazis is pretty laughable.
For starters you are aware the extermination camps were a (perhaps poorly guarded) secret? That until the Allies took them over nobody believed escapees and survivors? That the full depths of Nazi depravity weren't known until after Nuremberg?
Shit, they didn't even start the ghettos and revocation of citizenry for Jews until the early 30s after they'd been in power a couple years.
So we're looking at the rhetoric, the tactics, where the money is coming from, the actions of politicians who DO have power that Farage has been in contact with, and all those signs paint very troubling pictures indeed. As noted way upthread, the only sensible scenario under which Farage isn't a fascist is if it's pure grift and he's just using the tools of fascism to enrich himself, which I can hardly discount.
It's just irrelevant in terms of pure real-world impact. Pretend fascist conmen still employ the same stochastic terror as true believers.

Oy vey. Most Christians in the UK do not want homosexuality outlawed. Most Muslims do. You can point toward some Christians all you want, but it doesn't matter. Most Christians in the UK are fine with having homosexuals as neighbors, by quite a margin. If you want to say it's a fundamentalist religion problem, that just means more British Muslims are religious fundamentalists. It doesn't really change anything about the desires of British Muslims. Tap dancing around the bottom line won't change the bottom line.

And, please pay attention as I repeat myself. My point of mentioning that 40% of Muslims in the UK wanting to enforce some of Sharia law is not that some parts of Sharia law is awful, the point is that 40% of Muslims in the UK want to change the law to better suit themselves. That's as simple as I can make it for you.

But enjoy the study.

Demanding that fascists not-yet-in-power meet the same standards as 1945 Nazis
would be pretty laughable. I don't demand that. Where did I demand that? I spoke of speeches, not regulations enforced or death camps built. You're giving me enough straw to build a house from, albeit not one very sound against lupine gusts.