Star Trek (DS9): Valiant

[Dînadan]

One other little niggle I don't see much of in Starfleet is an NCO corps..

Its funny you bring that up, as in another thread, there was a big debate on what the NCO ranks meant in Starfleet, as O'Brian had Ensigns (and I think a few times, a Lieutenant as underlings. Which is its own can of worms.

Personally I think in that case it's best to handwave that (assuming there's no rule that he can order them around on his own authority) as Sisko ordering them (either explicitly or by implication by making him a department head) to follow his orders. Also, I'd think his authority would only extend as far as engineering/operations matters and anything else that fell under his department's purview and those outside his department he can't order around (except for specific missions where they're put under his command like the trip to Empok Nor where Garek turn psycho); for example, he could order a junior Lieutenant gold shirt in Operations, but he couldn't order a blue shirt Ensign unless a higher ranked officer ordered them to follow him first.

Also, in some other cases, they may just be bowing to his experience; e.g. in a close quarters phaser fight, if he started barking orders, unless they were stubborn and/or asses (or were veterans in their own right, in which case he probably wouldn't be barking orders to them anyway), then they'd probably follow those instructions and defer to his experience.


Similarly, over on TNG, although Crusher was a full commander, I think outside sickbay/medical matters she'd defer to lower ranked officers (e.g. Data and Geordi) within their departments if they had seniority (and those without seniority she'd follow their recommendations with reason (e.g. a Lieutant couldn't order her out of Engineering, but if they say "Standing next to that leaking reactor is a bad idea" then she probably wouldn't argue)).

[crankyconner]

I think that if Nog had pulled rank, Waters would've thrown him in the brig. Or told him to shut his mouth and basically refuse to hand over command. Waters doesn't strike me as the sort of person who would willingly hand over power.

[MaxWylde]

I think that if Nog had pulled rank, Waters would've thrown him in the brig. Or told him to shut his mouth and basically refuse to hand over command. Waters doesn't strike me as the sort of person who would willingly hand over power.

If he does that, he has compromised his position. Now he would be a pirate through and through. Before, he would've been forgiven for some enthusiastic fervor to fight for the Federation and maybe a little glory-seeking, in spite of his duties (due to the precociousness of youth). But, if he locks Nog up in the brig, that means he'd be facing a prison sentence (if Starfleet were the US Military, in a time of war, he'd be facing a firing squad). Because now he is in full defiance of Starfleet Regulations and the Chain of Command. In order to preserve their reputations as officers, they'd have to murder Nog and Jake.

But, if they kill Nog and Jake, and return to Starfleet, surely not every cadet in Red Squad's going to keep that secret to their graves. Indeed, if they kill a commissioned Starfleet Officer, that's murder and that would seriously put into question everything they're doing out there. They'd have crossed a serious line. How many of them could live with that?

[Independent George]

The best analogue I can come up with for Nog's situation would be if the Navy's first black officer took command (as an Ensign) of a bunch of white cadets with storied legacies in the navy. While operating a state-of-the-art nuclear sub behind enemy lines during a war, for some reason. Without a single enlisted man anywhere.

Yeah, that really doesn't make any more sense, either. The character dynamics of Nog being hesitant to pull rank makes sense; the rest of it is just plain ridiculous, and it's hard to separate the two.

[Archanubis]

I believe I read somewhere (most likely Memory Alpha), that part of the reason Nog doesn't challenge Watters for command of the Valiant was, in part, due to his upbringing as a Ferengi. Granted, Nog was one of the first of his race, if not *the* first, to openly break with Ferengi traditions, but the show did hint several times that Nog didn't entirely abandon his beliefs. One of those, mentioned several times, was when a Ferengi saw an opportunity, they took it. Watters offered Nog the opportunity to be both a high ranking engineering officer and a member of Red Squad, both of which it's been hinted (overtly in the case of Red Squad) he's wanted since joining Starfleet Academy. Therefore, he'd be reluctant to give up such an opportunity, even as Jake is making a pretty strong case that Watters is "binky-bonkers, cluck-cluck, gibber-gibber, my-old-man's-a-mushroom nuts."

I also think that I read that Ron Moore, in regards to Nog not relieving Watters, was taking inspiration from an old Age of Sail rule where only a line officer (a commissioned officer with general command authority and who is eligible for operational commands) was the only was who could relieve an officer with a battlefield commission. Not sure how accurate that is, but it does explain at least the writers' thinking at the time.

[DNJimerson]

Speaking as a former Warrant Officer myself, I can answer some of these issues. This episode is a glaring example of how horrendously unprofessional Starfleet, as a service (whether you think it's a military or not) is.

There is indeed a staggering amount of casual, overt, flagrant insubordination tolerated in Starfleet, from "Encounter at Farpoint" -- when Yar disobeyed a direct order from Picard and said "I'm sorry, sir, but I must," and Picard was all cool with that -- all the way through the TNG era.

[Wolf359]

When the Valiant fired its special torpedoes at the Jem'Hadar ship, there was this big explosion, yet the ship was apparently undamaged? So what was it that exploded?

And on the ranks thing, Nog was obviously star struck by Wattets and Dead Squad as he was told he was going to be a Lt. Commander, but only wore Lt junior grade ranks. One more thing they seemingly don't teach at Starfleet Academy...

[MaxWylde]

Speaking as a former Warrant Officer myself, I can answer some of these issues. This episode is a glaring example of how horrendously unprofessional Starfleet, as a service (whether you think it's a military or not) is.

There is indeed a staggering amount of casual, overt, flagrant insubordination tolerated in Starfleet, from "Encounter at Farpoint" -- when Yar disobeyed a direct order from Picard and said "I'm sorry, sir, but I must," and Picard was all cool with that -- all the way through the TNG era.

Indeed there is, and there's too much to cite. It's almost as though Starfleet trains their officers to be like this, as if discipline and bearing have no role at all in the make-up of an officer. When I went through Warrant Officer Candidacy School at Fort Rucker, Alabama, the WOC instructors there ingrain in you how important these things are, and to emphasize the point, they constantly mess with you to undermine your composure. Attention to Detail is important, and they go to great lengths to tell you how they want your uniform, your boots, your bunk, everything; it's like Basic Training, only worse because they will gig you on even the slightest deviation, real or imagined, just to mess with your composure. They had us up in the middle of the night in our Class As to see if they were ready at all times, and once I had a slight smudge on one of my brass insignia, and they were on me like a ton of bricks for it, using language I've never heard a Drill Sergeant use. Fortunately I knew the game, and I maintained my composure, even as I was doing push-ups in full dress uniform (smirking the whole time).

Starfleet seems to train their officers only on other things, particularly sciences, engineering, and such, and that's all fine, but if they're not training their people on the basics of what officers are expected to be, it's tough to rationalize their behavior in anyway other than unprofessional. It rather makes it all the more questionable when you consider that an officer has to be ready to take command and take charge of a situation, no matter what his rank or station is. Can you imagine a guy like Barclay taking command of the Enterprise in a crisis? I can personally imagine how an officer like him got through training and got aboard the Enterprise, because there are lots of officers like him in any military, but even so, I have far more confidence in a typical US military Lieutenant or Captain than I do for someone like a Starfleet Officer, because I know that real officers have certain things instilled in them through indoctrination, training, and discipline.

It's amazing there wasn't very many mutinies aboard ships out there. Maybe they use other means to instill a certain amount of Morale (which is the willingness to do what is required), such as incorporating Dr. Adams' mind rays in their computer displays or something?

[FaxModem1]

It is worth pointing out that Starfleet isn't looking for people to shoot phasers and polish boots, well they are, but they are also looking for geniuses who can identify an anomaly and use technobabble to end the problem. The chain of command is a solid good thing, but Starfleet needs people who will question a situation and apply logic and reasoning to it.

Someone like Barclay would make a terrible soldier, but he's a great engineer and problem solver. And considering half the crap Starfleet runs into, I can understand why they place a higher priority on it.

EDIT: Imagine if you had engineers who didn't question their Captain's orders in the middle of an anomaly, and because of that, made it much worse? Such as when Data disobeyed orders during the blockade against the Romulans? Or if he had followed ​orders, and the Romulans kept supplying the Dura's sisters, the entire Quadrant would have changed. Yet at the same time, his crew did obey the chain of command.

[DNJimerson]

It is worth pointing out that Starfleet isn't looking for people to shoot phasers and polish boots, well they are, but they are also looking for geniuses who can identify an anomaly and use technobabble to end the problem. The chain of command is a solid good thing, but Starfleet needs people who will question a situation and apply logic and reasoning to it.

Someone like Barclay would make a terrible soldier, but he's a great engineer and problem solver. And considering half the crap Starfleet runs into, I can understand why they place a higher priority on it.

EDIT: Imagine if you had engineers who didn't question their Captain's orders in the middle of an anomaly, and because of that, made it much worse? Such as when Data disobeyed orders during the blockade against the Romulans? Or if he had followed ​orders, and the Romulans kept supplying the Dura's sisters, the entire Quadrant would have changed. Yet at the same time, his crew did obey the chain of command.

The insubordination is always justified by the insubordinate person in question being "right."

Which is preposterous, because it wouldn't justify anything, and also because it makes the characters above that person into incompetent boobs, which would include the main cast. So, you have multiple levels of unrealism and further evidence that Starfleet is a clown college. (Except clown colleges are actually pretty intense and rigorous.) And you're also undermining your own characters.

If the argument is "see, the junior officers SHOULD be insubordinate, because look at what the superior officers MISSED," then you need to drum out your superior officers and get competent ones. But that's not how 24th-century Starfleet rolls.

(And speaking of Data, it's only made more ridiculous by the sheer number of times he proved himself to be a serious security risk, yet he's still maintained not only as crew, but in a position of authority. One wonders what the heck Tom Paris could ever have done to end up in PRISON.)