Let's get down to brass tacks... (SJWs/influence in movies)

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

That was really well said and pretty much sums everything up nicely. It's shame really that those people on both sides that overreact don't seem to realize those things but there seems to be nothing that can be done for that so we that are reasonable just need to not let that bother us.

Thanks. I don't know if fandom was ever great at nuanced, reasonable discussion, but emotions running high and a charged political climate make it difficult to disagree on anything without a bevy of insults and accusations. Unfortunately I think a lot of that stems from bad faith actors who profit off outrage and drive discussions to ridiculous places.

The "problem" with Rey is more that the surrounding movies are flat-out garbage. Episode VII was one of the worst movies I've ever seen, and the ONLY thing that kept TLJ from being worse was that at least TLJ tried to do something moderately interesting.

But yeah, generally good points, I think. I still want to see more diverse protagonists, but the Patented Disney Corporate Method of having most of the movie be a sausage party then marching a bunch of cardboard cutouts in the shape of ladies out for a big tableau shot is fucking stupid.

I like TFA myself, although I agree that the issues I have with Rey (which mostly boil down to a lack of real development/hero's journey) and with the sequel trilogy thus far stem from poor set-up. Which is too bad, because I thought it was good casting.

As far as more diversity, I think there's plenty of creatively valid ways to do that. It's too bad that the powers that be often seem to choose the most awkward, fourth-wall-breaking way possible to shoehorn in "Diversity! (TM)"

[MrL1992]

Oh they wanted a black lead, I remember that detail distinctly. Yes they were open to other ethnicities if by chance they couldn't find the right black actor but no, it was very much their intention with Sisko.

The video didn't mention that, and I haven't been able to corroborate it.

The video is kind of stupid, though. Star Trek has always been diverse, but I haven't heard complaints that the lead is a black woman from fellow anti-SJWs. Shives spends most of the video attacking what's mostly a straw man.

I include examples from my book source as both contributed to the argument.

Oh that's exactly the things they complain about. All number of characters for simply being who they are. 'Box sticking being just one thrown about accusation.

It always seems to boil down to the perceived 'intent' behind how they cast or what they write whether thrse intentions are real or imagined. As I was pointing out, many Trek characters have created and cast with specific ethnicities in mind. That kind of casting has been a thing for the longest time.

[MrL1992]

In regard to Star Wars. If you don't like a character or set of characters, fine, fair, not every piece of writingvworks for everyone.

But what the heck does it have to do with them being diverse? The accusation so many want to make. How would have the standard Caucasian male majority have changed anything?

[Mecha82]

Interesting enough I recently watched Renegade Cut's video about Star Trek and how it has tackled social issues from it's very beginning like sci-fi tends to do. It's rather interesting to think how some people don't seem to understand that and they think that ST has never had politics in it an dsthey think that it's modern thing and fault of what ever they blame that day.

In regard to Star Wars. If you don't like a character or set of characters, fine, fair, not every piece of writingvworks for everyone.

But what the heck does it have to do with them being diverse? The accusation so many want to make. How would have the standard Caucasian male majority have changed anything?

That is good point. Those would had still been same movies so I don't buy that it's some how fault of "SJWs" that those movies are way those are regardless of fact that I do find those enjoyable enough even with flaws that those have. Of course with Star Wars sequel movies we have case were TFA was safe new start but there are fans that hate it while TLJ was very different and some fans also hate that so phrase "you can't please everyone" does apply.

[Worffan101]

The "problem" with Rey is more that the surrounding movies are flat-out garbage. Episode VII was one of the worst movies I've ever seen, and the ONLY thing that kept TLJ from being worse was that at least TLJ tried to do something moderately interesting.

But yeah, generally good points, I think. I still want to see more diverse protagonists, but the Patented Disney Corporate Method of having most of the movie be a sausage party then marching a bunch of cardboard cutouts in the shape of ladies out for a big tableau shot is fucking stupid.

I like TFA myself, although I agree that the issues I have with Rey (which mostly boil down to a lack of real development/hero's journey) and with the sequel trilogy thus far stem from poor set-up. Which is too bad, because I thought it was good casting.

As far as more diversity, I think there's plenty of creatively valid ways to do that. It's too bad that the powers that be often seem to choose the most awkward, fourth-wall-breaking way possible to shoehorn in "Diversity! (TM)"

TFA REALLY loses its luster on second viewing. It's incoherent, has no sense of scale, is a ripoff of ANH, has garbage character work, is overwrought to the worst degree, largely consists of set pieces with minimal bridging, and has all of five seconds of amusing, original content.

It is, like most JJ Abrams projects, a stupid disaster.

Which is part of why TLJ failed. Rian Johnson was trying to play a super-advanced master-class version of that game where you remove the sticks one by one, with a sloppy pile of toenail shavings.

As to diversity, it's not that hard. Writers already know the emotions and arcs that work well with characters. "Hi, I'm Supergirl, I'm worried about my sister constantly putting herself in danger, Lex Luthor's evil plans, and which restaurant I should take Lena Luthor out to for our date. Oh shit Lena just walked in in that dress and I think my brain just short-circuited because it turns out I really like boobs."

"Hi, I'm Jane Wick, some assholes killed the dog who's the last thing I have from my wife, I'm gonna fuck them up" *cue gratuitous murder*

*Sofia Boutella walks up to a bar, the black chick behind it swoons* "The name's Bond. Jane Bond. I'll have a vodka martini, shaken, not stirred."

"Hi, I'm Black Lightning. A cop shot my unarmed daughter while she was waving a sign around at a protest against a zoning law she thinks is racist, my other daughter has superpowers like me, my wife is pissed because I'm back in the superhero game, and I still have my day job as principal to worry about." *some kid runs past trailing toilet paper and screaming "ANARCHY!"* "...fuck my life, man."

It's seriously not that hard lol. But Disney thinks that simply making Captain Marvel godmode and giving a bunch of cardboard cutouts a big fancy shot will make up for Captain Marvel BARELY TALKING IN HER OWN FUCKING MOVIE.

[Karha of Honor]

Oh they wanted a black lead, I remember that detail distinctly. Yes they were open to other ethnicities if by chance they couldn't find the right black actor but no, it was very much their intention with Sisko.

The video didn't mention that, and I haven't been able to corroborate it.

The video is kind of stupid, though. Star Trek has always been diverse, but I haven't heard complaints that the lead is a black woman from fellow anti-SJWs. Shives spends most of the video attacking what's mostly a straw man.

I include examples from my book source as both contributed to the argument.

Oh that's exactly the things they complain about. All number of characters for simply being who they are. 'Box sticking being just one thrown about accusation.

It always seems to boil down to the perceived 'intent' behind how they cast or what they write whether thrse intentions are real or imagined. As I was pointing out, many Trek characters have created and cast with specific ethnicities in mind. That kind of casting has been a thing for the longest time.

If you have Hitlerina running around with the good good guys + gals and praising pansexuality from the Mirror Universe the optics are different.

In regard to Star Wars. If you don't like a character or set of characters, fine, fair, not every piece of writingvworks for everyone.

But what the heck does it have to do with them being diverse? The accusation so many want to make. How would have the standard Caucasian male majority have changed anything?

The bs was ideologically driven, casting for race is part of the larger shit sandwich.

Interesting enough I recently watched Renegade Cut's video about Star Trek and how it has tackled social issues from it's very beginning like sci-fi tends to do. It's rather interesting to think how some people don't seem to understand that and they think that ST has never had politics in it an dsthey think that it's modern thing and fault of what ever they blame that day.

It's rather interesting to think how some people don't seem to understand that and they think that ST has never had politics in it an dsthey think that it's modern thing and fault of what ever they blame that day.


Are those people in this thread? If not why do they matter? I mean how many could there be anyways?
If they exist pretty much any political messaging flyes over their heads.

[Darth Wedgius]

Oh they wanted a black lead, I remember that detail distinctly. Yes they were open to other ethnicities if by chance they couldn't find the right black actor but no, it was very much their intention with Sisko.

The video didn't mention that, and I haven't been able to corroborate it.

The video is kind of stupid, though. Star Trek has always been diverse, but I haven't heard complaints that the lead is a black woman from fellow anti-SJWs. Shives spends most of the video attacking what's mostly a straw man.

I include examples from my book source as both contributed to the argument.

Oh that's exactly the things they complain about. All number of characters for simply being who they are. 'Box sticking being just one thrown about accusation.

It always seems to boil down to the perceived 'intent' behind how they cast or what they write whether thrse intentions are real or imagined. As I was pointing out, many Trek characters have created and cast with specific ethnicities in mind. That kind of casting has been a thing for the longest time.

It's curious because this casting sheet for Sisko has several non-black actors. And I had read somewhere that he got the role on merit alone, but I can't find that source.

The complaints I've heard about "checking all the boxes" involve casting actors/actresses that match the character in unimportant ways like sexuality, or choosing writers/artists/directors/key grips/whatever for those checkboxes.

[MrL1992]

In regard to Star Wars. If you don't like a character or set of characters, fine, fair, not every piece of writingvworks for everyone.

But what the heck does it have to do with them being diverse? The accusation so many want to make. How would have the standard Caucasian male majority have changed anything?

The bs was ideologically driven, casting for race is part of the larger shit sandwich.

and again ' things being done for reasons of some invidious conspiratorial sounding 'ideology'. Proof? You a ,find reader? Maybe they though, 'hey, let's have a female lead hero considering the previous two had were male'. Or, even more likely, business reasons? Appealing to more demographics?

In terms of Star Trek, the reasoning of 'ideology' as you put it is more likely given the franchisees history. An idealogy is a set of beliefs. Roddenberry, like every human being on this planet, had beliefs and they informed what he wanted Star Trek to be. You can call it 'ideology' to give it some insidious sounding bent but they drive almost every creative decision.

It's curious because this casting sheet for Sisko has several non-black actors. And I had read somewhere that he got the role on merit alone, but I can't find that source.

The complaints I've heard about "checking all the boxes" involve casting actors/actresses that match the character in unimportant ways like sexuality, or choosing writers/artists/directors/key grips/whatever for those checkboxes.

As I already mentioned, they were open to other a tots of different ethnicities but primarily wanted a black actor. They aren't going to write that down on a casting call though. Not every fully 'open' casting session is that in reality. They often know what they want but remain open if their desired description cannot be met by the right actor.

[Draco Dracul]

In regard to Star Wars. If you don't like a character or set of characters, fine, fair, not every piece of writingvworks for everyone.

But what the heck does it have to do with them being diverse? The accusation so many want to make. How would have the standard Caucasian male majority have changed anything?

Well for one the accusations of Rey being a Mary Sue would not have happened. And I don't mean that the term Gary Stu would have been used instead because that's practically never used.

[clearspira]

In regard to Star Wars. If you don't like a character or set of characters, fine, fair, not every piece of writingvworks for everyone.

But what the heck does it have to do with them being diverse? The accusation so many want to make. How would have the standard Caucasian male majority have changed anything?

Well for one the accusations of Rey being a Mary Sue would not have happened. And I don't mean that the term Gary Stu would have been used instead because that's practically never used.

You have never heard it used. Not the same thing.