DS9 - The House of Quark

[WhiteDragon25]

Yeah, this episode was great as both a Ferengi and a Klingon episode, and there should've been more such interactions with other Trek aliens: there's no end to the number of possible combinations you can have for a fun scenario!

More on topic, has any other episode shown the Klingon's having any sort of currency or financial system? It was a central part of this episode I don't recall any other mention of the Klingons' finances. Maybe something in The Undiscovered Country about Praxis kersploding wrecking the Klingon economy but even that I'm not sure.

As for this question, I imagine the Klingon economy to be a sort of mixture between the Japanese Zaibatsu/Keiretsu systems and Medieval European trade guilds, along with a bit of Christian & Islamic thought regarding prohibitions on usury and such.

Klingons don't really seem the type to engage in the sort of consumerist-centered service economies that we have now in the 21st century: instead of random useless knickknacks you buy for cheap, they'd rather buy something that they can have immediate and visible use for, like say, a new bat'leth to stab a bitch with after you've broken the old one doing exactly that. As such, practical trades such as craftsmen or forge-workers get more respect and consideration than accountants, or patent lawyers, or office clerks.

Fighting in glorious combat or contributing blood and sweat to a greater cause is more honorable than moving around some numbers on a spreadsheet or suckering an idiot out of his money with some shiny trinket. As such, they'd prefer that matters of economics are straight and to-the-point: you pay someone for something you need, they provide exactly what you asked for, everybody goes home happy (with 'happy' in this case being 'stabbed a bitch in battle with a bat'leth'). If you don't follow through with that basic assumption of how deals should go... well, it might just be you who gets stabbed like a bitch with a bat'leth.

Which is why the Ferengi have Rule of Acquisition #192: Never cheat a Klingon... (unless you're sure you can get away with it).

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

lol@ Quark dawning the dorky accountant sweater vest when he looks over the house's books. They should have given him a futuristic tape calculator of some sort.

I did think it was an interesting dilemma that these people have no means of verifying the fraud that took place despite accountable evidence. Yeah Quark could have been cooking, but this is a porous judicial measure needless to say.

And lol @ the taxidermy joke.

[jlb21821]

One thing that iv'e never understood is that TNG established that women cant be on the high council and to some extant the right of Klingon women in this episode seem to be restricted. However this does not coincide with the fact that not to long before this Azethbur was chancellor after Gorkon was killed. So a woman can be chancellor, but not a council member?

[Mabus]

Maybe Azetbur was chancellor only for the duration of the crisis? Like after the peace treaty was signed, she was forced to resign or something.

[clearspira]

I have to wonder putting the sexism stuff aside what her reign was like. Peace with the Federation was incredibly controversial, and when someone with the charisma of Gorkon was murdered and leaving in his place a woman of perhaps limited political experience I wonder if she was eaten alive (metaphorically speaking). She is absolutely how I imagine Grand Nagus Rom's reign went down but that is another story.

And then when you DO add the sexism stuff, I imagine few made it easy for her, with many accusing her of giving up too much power and influence or being too cowardly in negotiations whether it was true or not. Maybe she was the reason why there is so much sexism now? ''you're going to elect a woman? After what Azetbur the Foolhardy did? Do you want any songs sung in your name after we have roared for you or not?''

[Wargriffin]

One thing that iv'e never understood is that TNG established that women cant be on the high council and to some extant the right of Klingon women in this episode seem to be restricted. However this does not coincide with the fact that not to long before this Azethbur was chancellor after Gorkon was killed. So a woman can be chancellor, but not a council member?

Writers are less anal about Continuity then fans are.... thats seriously the answer.


When Reunion was written, the idea was the Feds were at peace with the Klingons but still morally superior in that Rodenberry ideal, while the Klingons were still wrapped up in their traditions


I mean if you want an in universe answer... all it would take is a fairly hardline Traditionalist and a mostly Traditionalist council to make the High Council a boys club and relegate women back to their roles

That may have happened after Praxis there was a big spearhead to move forward but seeing how long Klingons live A good chunk of the older generations are still around and don't like the way the progress is moving 'Whether they don't like it on principle or see it as purposeful weakening of the race is up to debate'


I mean Remember ALOT of Klingons were for jumping back on the Lets FIGHT everybody route of the old days when Gowron was in charge... and only settled down ocne a Bigger Fish showed up

[FaxModem1]

One thing that iv'e never understood is that TNG established that women cant be on the high council and to some extant the right of Klingon women in this episode seem to be restricted. However this does not coincide with the fact that not to long before this Azethbur was chancellor after Gorkon was killed. So a woman can be chancellor, but not a council member?

Writers are less anal about Continuity then fans are.... thats seriously the answer.


When Reunion was written, the idea was the Feds were at peace with the Klingons but still morally superior in that Rodenberry ideal, while the Klingons were still wrapped up in their traditions


I mean if you want an in universe answer... all it would take is a fairly hardline Traditionalist and a mostly Traditionalist council to make the High Council a boys club and relegate women back to their roles

That may have happened after Praxis there was a big spearhead to move forward but seeing how long Klingons live A good chunk of the older generations are still around and don't like the way the progress is moving 'Whether they don't like it on principle or see it as purposeful weakening of the race is up to debate'


I mean Remember ALOT of Klingons were for jumping back on the Lets FIGHT everybody route of the old days when Gowron was in charge... and only settled down ocne a Bigger Fish showed up

This could be the very reason that the Klingon Empire is on a ticking clock as noted by Ezri and Sloan. There's corruption and power plays being done at the very top, with sacrifices being made by everyone else in the Empire. Think how many wars they've fought since the start of TNG. The Klingons have had a civil war, an invasion of Cardassia, a fight with the Federation, and then a huge war with the Dominion(including being the only thing holding the front lines when the Breen weapon was a game changer). While the Federation and the Romulan Empire were in a few of those conflicts as well, both were relatively intact and able to come out relatively unscathed in comparison. Meanwhile, the Klingons might have lost a lot of economic capital, troops, and ships fighting for conquest, while having relatively little to show for it.

You have to wonder what the post-Gowron government looks like with Martok in charge, as they'd have a LOT of rebuilding to do and might face rebellions if people bring up the fact that a lowborn is Chancellor, with members of the High Council wanting to oust him for not being of high enough blood. Martok's only chance of survival could be playing to the traditionalists and continuing to keep women off the council, or cause a reshuffling of the deck by bringing women into the council, and giving himself a more egalitarian power base.

[clearspira]

I mean if you want an in universe answer... all it would take is a fairly hardline Traditionalist and a mostly Traditionalist council to make the High Council a boys club and relegate women back to their roles

I still have a big problem with that though. These women are warriors, they love fighting as much as the men and have access to heavy firepower. Let me ask a question: how many of their wives, daughters and mothers are the men realistically going to gut with a Bat'Leth before giving up on any war? The only answer that makes sense in-universe is that they are quite happy with the way things are.

And please no one bring up the real world. Women in Saudi Arabia do not have access to military grade equipment, are not people trained from birth in warfare, and have little in the means to communicate with one another to rally. Klingon women simply do not have the David and Goliath situation that human women frequently have done.

Its also worth noting that according to Worf ''Klingons like strong women''. And we have seen this with Martok too. Wouldn't they like having women in office?

[Wargriffin]

One thing that iv'e never understood is that TNG established that women cant be on the high council and to some extant the right of Klingon women in this episode seem to be restricted. However this does not coincide with the fact that not to long before this Azethbur was chancellor after Gorkon was killed. So a woman can be chancellor, but not a council member?

Writers are less anal about Continuity then fans are.... thats seriously the answer.


When Reunion was written, the idea was the Feds were at peace with the Klingons but still morally superior in that Rodenberry ideal, while the Klingons were still wrapped up in their traditions


I mean if you want an in universe answer... all it would take is a fairly hardline Traditionalist and a mostly Traditionalist council to make the High Council a boys club and relegate women back to their roles

That may have happened after Praxis there was a big spearhead to move forward but seeing how long Klingons live A good chunk of the older generations are still around and don't like the way the progress is moving 'Whether they don't like it on principle or see it as purposeful weakening of the race is up to debate'


I mean Remember ALOT of Klingons were for jumping back on the Lets FIGHT everybody route of the old days when Gowron was in charge... and only settled down ocne a Bigger Fish showed up

This could be the very reason that the Klingon Empire is on a ticking clock as noted by Ezri and Sloan. There's corruption and power plays being done at the very top, with sacrifices being made by everyone else in the Empire. Think how many wars they've fought since the start of TNG. The Klingons have had a civil war, an invasion of Cardassia, a fight with the Federation, and then a huge war with the Dominion(including being the only thing holding the front lines when the Breen weapon was a game changer). While the Federation and the Romulan Empire were in a few of those conflicts as well, both were relatively intact and able to come out relatively unscathed in comparison. Meanwhile, the Klingons might have lost a lot of economic capital, troops, and ships fighting for conquest, while having relatively little to show for it.

You have to wonder what the post-Gowron government looks like with Martok in charge, as they'd have a LOT of rebuilding to do and might face rebellions if people bring up the fact that a lowborn is Chancellor, with members of the High Council wanting to oust him for not being of high enough blood. Martok's only chance of survival could be playing to the traditionalists and continuing to keep women off the council, or cause a reshuffling of the deck by bringing women into the council, and giving himself a more egalitarian power base.

Not if he plays "this is what adhering and clinging to tradition has brought us" card I mean it is noted that several Klingons are dissatisfied and disillusioned by their current society

I mean Martok is pretty much the poster boy for someone the Klingon traditions FAILED which I'm pretty sure alot of the younger Klingons who can't move up the laddeer due to family would immediately rally behind

He was rejected out of a higher position due to a personal grudge, only getting the chance to command do to the chance death of his commanding officer in battle to become one of the most recognized and respected commanders who almost had his life thrown away again due to petty grudges of a chancellor more worried about his position then the empire

Martok could easily spin that as the Gods showing him favor, Not only showing thier favor to him but also Worf 'Yet another Klingon screwed by the system who saved the Empire' being his staunch ally Both who really should be heroes of the Klingon people.


honestly Online having yet another duras show up and dispose Martok was for the sack of having Klingon enemies... but in all honesty The Klingons race should be at a crossroads of conscience similar to how the WWs changed everything

I know Chuck thinks Martok's gonna get eaten alive by the politicians but even they have to see at this point the Empire HAS to change or it will die

[Hero_Of_Shadows]

Given the whole discussion about how Gowron and the Council couldn't be sure if Quark was telling the truth or not because they didn't have forensic accountants makes me think of Littlefinger in Game of Thrones.

Not going to spoil anything major I just want to explain the parallels I see, but you'd best not read ahead if you want no spoilers whatsoever.

Littlefinger (LF) is a noble but not one of the high nobles the big players of the realm, he's barely noble but has a good head for finance.

A civil war happens and new king takes power, so of course this new king needs a new government people to run his realm for him.

As LF has connections to the wife of the new chancellor he gets the job of treasurer.

And since he hates all the high lords for looking down on him he immediately starts sowing the seeds of chaos, stealing all that he can, getting the crown into debt, using the money he steals to get his own people in power etc.

Now the new king is a good warrior, general and let's say diplomat but a terrible administrator and lavish with feasts, banquets, tourneys.

The rest of the high lords see that something is rotten the treasury was full and now they're taking loans to survive even as LF is using money from the treasury to "invest".

LF when asked puts all the blame on the king and on the banquets and tourneys the easy to see "frvivolous" expenses, even if looking at the numbers the king would have had to host 100 times more tourneys for the debt given to accumulate.

The high lords like the Klingons don't want to/can't run the numbers themselves to check LF.

And this is where the tale diverge.

In ST Quark enters the scene calls out the villain in front of the nobles, explains everything and it all leads to the villain's honor being proven as non-existent.

In GoT no one comes to the rescue, the nobles are more than happy to buy into LF's lies that the king is to blame and since they can't challenge the king LF gets away with everything and the realm is pushed ever further on the path to a new war.