Fallout and the Folly of Nationalism

[Elderdog]

Oh and if you think that Heinlein was a fascist, then go read "Stranger in a strange land".

I wouldn't say Heinlein was a fascist necessarily, just that the society he created in Starship Troopers had strong elements of fascism (that were played up to create a DEFINITELY fascist state in the film).
(Honestly based on what I know of the man and his work I think he falls into the trap of understanding the need for certain freedoms and understanding some axes of oppression, dude had an utterly fascinating perspective on romance and sexuality, while not being able to shake aspects of a conservative upbringing and holding onto some strong authoritarian tendencies.)

Anyway, I'm seeing insistence that military service is not the only service to the state that's required for citizenship, but not seeing other examples of the kinds of service that count. Even supposing it's possible the create an equitable set of options for service, the odds the examples within the book aren't exclusionary in one way or another are slim.

More than that, creating criteria for exclusion of this kind to start with is effortless to turn into a tool of oppression.

"Only Citizens get a voice in government" -> "Only those who perform Service to the State may be citizens" -> "the state may refuse the service of citizens based on various criteria" -> *unstated Rule Zero* "no one who is [x] will be allowed service"


Once you have fascists in power, Rule Zero comes into play and [x] is whatever group is currently demonized as part of maintaining the core mentality of fascism, be it gender, race, disability, whatever. And since people are already conditioned to accept the seemingly-reasonable exclusion criteria, it becomes trivial to dismiss the concerns of the out group and marginalize them; oh they're just lazy, they hate the State, whatever. You see the same pattern in any kind of exclusionary criteria (welfare in the US for example, hence the myth of the Welfare Queen), but once fundamental participation in governance becomes something with acceptable exclusions the slide to fascism is often swift and inevitable.

At this point we should just create a separate discussion on the forum or have someone pay Chuck to review Starship Troopers because I think Liberty Prime is feeling a little left out.

[CmdrKing]

I do think it fits into the broader topic of both "military nationalism is a fool's errand" and "people are really bad at media literacy" buuuut yeah probably. Or at least stop spamming up this topic with it.

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Without being directly familiar with any Fallout game, I always got the impression it was also deeply inspired by the End of History feel of the 90. Like, "so we lucked out and have ended history, because here's what would have happened if we'd maintained the paranoia and casual hatred that fueled the 50s and 60s". Hence the overall aesthetic of the shelters and why Pipboy looks like a retro dawn-of-television mascot.

[Elderdog]

It's also worth pointing out how the concept of the vaults feels like it was directly lifted from a Phillip K. Dick story I read with Vault -Tec taking advantage of both the jingoism and paranoia of the American government and advance their own agenda for the post war world.

[Imperator-zor]

Except the richest most powerful people aren't the people in office but the civilians working in private industry.

Which does not change the fact that as a default Civilians have no direct say in government. At best you are saying that the Rich and Powerful and well connected still have a measure of influence even without the franchise. That still does not change the fact that the system is

just because you don't like the death penalty or canning's doesn't make the society fascist. Do you think Singapore is?

It's not good for society to have said punishments. They're useless in terms of penology, anything that they can do rehabilitative measures can do better and they (and the acceptance of such means as just) are valuable tools in a would be tyrants' box.

What's authoritarian about that? For a long while, only land owners had the vote, and that wasn't authoritarian, IMHO at least.

Those systems were set up to benefit those who were wealthy. See Victorian Poverty.

In Starship Troopers, there can still be a large amount of individual liberty for anyone, and in anyone can serve the state for a bit to get the vote. I didn't see restrictions on free speech or political "re-education" going on in that book.

We don't see much of how this society works.

Zor

[Darth Wedgius]

Except the richest most powerful people aren't the people in office but the civilians working in private industry.

Which does not change the fact that as a default Civilians have no direct say in government. At best you are saying that the Rich and Powerful and well connected still have a measure of influence.

just because you don't like the death penalty or canning's doesn't make the society fascist. Do you think Singapore is?

It's not good for society to have said punishments. They're useless in terms of penology, anything that they can do rehabilitative measures can do better and they're valuable tools in a would be tyrants' arsenal.

Zor

They're hardly useless. I believe those executed have had a very low recidivism rate.

[Antiboyscout]

Except the richest most powerful people aren't the people in office but the civilians working in private industry.

Which does not change the fact that as a default Civilians have no direct say in government. At best you are saying that the Rich and Powerful and well connected still have a measure of influence.

just because you don't like the death penalty or canning's doesn't make the society fascist. Do you think Singapore is?

It's not good for society to have said punishments. They're useless in terms of penology, anything that they can do rehabilitative measures can do better and they're valuable tools in a would be tyrants' arsenal.

Zor

As if "rehabilitation" isn't an equally powerful tool in the autocrat's tool box. Do you feel like spending time in a Chinese re-education camp?

"Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.”

[Thebestoftherest]

Remember that it was also the Chinese communist that blew the world up as well.

[Madner Kami]

There's evidence that the Chinese acted in self-defense. YMMV, but at least two entities were blamed for pulling the trigger. One either being Vault-Tec, the other being a military super-computer.

[Imperator-zor]

They're hardly useless. I believe those executed have had a very low recidivism rate.

They also have a non existant reform rate and you can undo at least part of an incarceration for a falsely convicted individual.

Besides Norway has a far lower Recitivism rate than the US does by focusing on rehabilitation.

Zor

[Darth Wedgius]

They're hardly useless. I believe those executed have had a very low recidivism rate.

They also have a non existant reform rate and you can undo at least part of an incarceration for a falsely convicted individual.

Besides Norway has a far lower Recitivism rate than the US does by focusing on rehabilitation.

Zor

None of which makes execution useless. You might be able to get organ donor material that way, too.