Nazis and the Nature of Evil

[Madner Kami]

the example in your first paragraph doesn't work, in that scenario, I would know for a fact that Hitler would grow up to be a mass murderer, that was not the case with anyone the Nazis killed. and no, there is absolutely no circumstances were I could think think a cause is worth killing a whole group of people for. if the Jewish people really did ruin Germany, maybe I could comprehend his actions but he only committed genocide against them simply because he didn't like them and made the average citizen think they ruined the country to go along with it.

If you can travel back in time, then you would not know that Hitler would grow up to be a mass murderer. You can not know. Because if you can travel back in time, you can change time. That is the very fundament of your own arguement, because if time were unchangable, then killing Hitler would do literally nothing.
And no, he did not just hate the jews somehow for no reason. He had reason for his hatred. Fabricated reasons. Falsely percieved reasons. But he had reasons. Reasons that can be comprehended, reasons which's conclusions can be followed and understood. You may not agree with his conclusions and I sincerely expect you to not agree with them, but sitting there and proclaiming that he just wanted to kill the jews, does not explain why he never killed anyone himself or never tried to kill a Jew when he was a young man or a teenager or even a child. Your proclamation assumes, that Hitler was born with the drive to kill all the jews, which is a flat out insane assumption.

and I will say this again, I admit I took this hypothetical from Doctor Who but if Hitler's scientists invented a biological weapon that killed on contact and would wipe out all life on Earth, do you really thing he wouldn't use it? after all, Hitler wanted power and what is a greater power for one to have then the power to end all life?

No. He would not. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of his motivations and, admittedly, towards the end of 1945 he'd probably push that button, given he felt betrayed by the very people he thought he'd do good for, but that was not his goal in life. You somehow seem to think, that Hitler is a God of Death for some undiscernible reason, when literally all he wanted was to bring greatness to a nation battered by war, famine and an opressive peace-treaty designed to pound his beloved nation even deeper into the dust than it already was. What he failed to understand was, that neither the Jews nor the Allies were to blame for the state that Germany was in, but that the people of Germany and the Kaiser himself worked towards that state of things, because both were trapped in their own flawed perception of reality.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

the example in your first paragraph doesn't work, in that scenario, I would know for a fact that Hitler would grow up to be a mass murderer, that was not the case with anyone the Nazis killed. and no, there is absolutely no circumstances were I could think think a cause is worth killing a whole group of people for. if the Jewish people really did ruin Germany, maybe I could comprehend his actions but he only committed genocide against them simply because he didn't like them and made the average citizen think they ruined the country to go along with it.

If you can travel back in time, then you would not know that Hitler would grow up to be a mass murderer. You can not know. Because if you can travel back in time, you can change time. That is the very fundament of your own arguement, because if time were unchangable, then killing Hitler would do literally nothing.
And no, he did not just hate the jews somehow for no reason. He had reason for his hatred. Fabricated reasons. Falsely percieved reasons. But he had reasons. Reasons that can be comprehended, reasons which's conclusions can be followed and understood. You may not agree with his conclusions and I sincerely expect you to not agree with them, but sitting there and proclaiming that he just wanted to kill the jews, does not explain why he never killed anyone himself or never tried to kill a Jew when he was a young man or a teenager or even a child. Your proclamation assumes, that Hitler was born with the drive to kill all the jews, which is a flat out insane assumption.

and I will say this again, I admit I took this hypothetical from Doctor Who but if Hitler's scientists invented a biological weapon that killed on contact and would wipe out all life on Earth, do you really thing he wouldn't use it? after all, Hitler wanted power and what is a greater power for one to have then the power to end all life?

No. He would not. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of his motivations and, admittedly, towards the end of 1945 he'd probably push that button, given he felt betrayed by the very people he thought he'd do good for, but that was not his goal in life. You somehow seem to think, that Hitler is a God of Death for some undiscernible reason, when literally all he wanted was to bring greatness to a nation battered by war, famine and an opressive peace-treaty designed to pound his beloved nation even deeper into the dust than it already was. What he failed to understand was, that neither the Jews nor the Allies were to blame for the state that Germany was in, but that the people of Germany and the Kaiser himself worked towards that state of things, because both were trapped in their own flawed perception of reality.

okay, I would consider that in that time travel scenario but nurture isn't all their is to a person, he very well could have been messed up from birth and anything I do to make sure he turns out better won't work.

and if Hitler's reasons for hating the Jewish were fabricated and he knew they were lies, then yes, he hated them just for no reason.

and how is the idea that Hitler was born a killer absurd? again, Jane Toppan was the real life Bad Seed and H.H. Homes was "Born with the Devil in him". I'm sorry but I used to be obsessed with history's evil doers, mostly serial killers and the encyclopedia I had and all the documentaries I watched keep saying things like "'born to kill" or "monsters in human skin". and rarely if ever talk about any good points about those individuals because, they simply don't have any. and I am open to the Supernatural so maybe Hitler really did use dark magic powers.

why can't you understand that it is impossible for me to even comprehend genocidal dictators or serial killers because of my hyper empathy and compassion? they have to be some sort of aberration to me.

[Madner Kami]

and if Hitler's reasons for hating the Jewish were fabricated and he knew they were lies, then yes, he hated them just for no reason.

He did not know that his reasons were bogus. Obviously he believed that the Jews controlled the banks and the world and were involved in the downfall of nations.

and how is the idea that Hitler was born a killer absurd?

Because he never killed anyone. This is also how his love to animals becomes doubly interesting and relevant, because he even lacks the equivalent of pulling a fly's wings or a spider's legs out.

why can't you understand that it is impossible for me to even comprehend genocidal dictators or serial killers because of my hyper empathy and compassion?

That is a contradiction in and of itself.

and I am open to the Supernatural so maybe Hitler really did use dark magic powers.

And this is just silly.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

and if Hitler's reasons for hating the Jewish were fabricated and he knew they were lies, then yes, he hated them just for no reason.

He did not know that his reasons were bogus. Obviously he believed that the Jews controlled the banks and the world and were involved in the downfall of nations.

and how is the idea that Hitler was born a killer absurd?

Because he never killed anyone. This is also how his love to animals becomes doubly interesting and relevant, because he even lacks the equivalent of pulling a fly's wings or a spider's legs out.

why can't you understand that it is impossible for me to even comprehend genocidal dictators or serial killers because of my hyper empathy and compassion?

That is a contradiction in and of itself.

and I am open to the Supernatural so maybe Hitler really did use dark magic powers.

And this is just silly.

it doesn't matter if he never killed anyone personally, anyone who can even order those atrocities is not a human being.

and how is my statement about not comprehending his actions a contradiction?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Yeah I'm not sure how him not personally killing someone really matters. He knew very well the weight of his actions, and I'd think anybody would consider it practically the same.

Sure there's levels to it. I've seen movies where knife hunters make fun of people that use like a rifle in war. like, "you don't got what it takes to do it right up close and personal," lol. But even just that take for instance, it's not any less telling of a moral/empathy/sympathy judgement the more disconnected something is.

[Madner Kami]

Yeah I'm not sure how him not personally killing someone really matters. He knew very well the weight of his actions, and I'd think anybody would consider it practically the same.

It matters because many people ordered the killing of other people, welcomed the killing of other people even and yet, are not killers. Or are you willing to call yourself a killer, after you killed in self-defense or in defense of your loved ones? What about the members of a firing squad? Or the guards serving in a death row? What do you call people who do not mourn the death of ISIS-members? Or what about the gold and the diamond in the ring of your wife, did you consider where that came from? There's a myriad of reasons to order the killing, welcome the killing, or otherwise facilitate the death of people and still not be a killer yourself. All it takes is a mind-construct that gives you a good enough reason or excuse or a way to get your mind away from it happening. A killer does not need a moral justification for the deaths he causes, he wants the deaths to happen, the death of other beings is a killer's end-goal. Hitler obviously needed a moral justification and you can even read his justifications in his book "Mein Kampf" (a boring mess, but it literally has all the infos you need to understand what was going on in his head and it had a road-map for the things to come, so if people at the time had actually read it, a lot of things could have gone different...). That's the difference.

and how is my statement about not comprehending his actions a contradiction?

Because you can not, by definition, be "hyper empathetic" and not understand a human's motivations. Because you can't go around and proclaim you'd kill a baby Hitler without a second thought and be compassionate.

it doesn't matter if he never killed anyone personally, anyone who can even order those atrocities is not a human being.

Oh and literally dehumanizing a human being because you do not agree to his or her course of actions, that does indeed make you the monster. If you are truely hyper-empathetic and compassionate, you'd never consider doing what you just did. You are full of hatred yourself and, like Hitler, you are just one step away from having a good enough reason and excuse.

[Jonathan101]

Hitler bullied kids at school into playing with him and was generally a disruptive student in the classroom.

He was extremely argumentative and condescending, well past the point of being verbally abusive.

He may have shot at or pulled a gun on people during WW1.

He definitely took part in street fights and riots in the early years of the Nazi Party, and at the very least assaulted people- he stopped soon after his own head got split open, but he continued to deliberately incite them and sent his goons to start fights with the Communists.

He certainly threatened people with violence to get his way on numerous occasions.

He is suspected of murdering his niece but that is unlikely.

He absolutely ordered millions of assaults, tortures and murders in his lifetime. This wasn't just during WW2, but innumerable instances starting at even before he came to power. He had zero compunctions about ordering violence and he encouraged and approved of his underlings committing it and being ready to commit it.

He was also known to sometimes bring in officers and foreign diplomats for a private meeting and spend hours shouting at them, screaming at them, berating them, threatening them, blaming him for any number of terrible actions that they "forced" him to take (like, say, "how brutal do you want our pending invasion of your country to be?" sort of actions) if they didn't give him what he wanted...and then he would go of and joke and laugh about how absolutely terrified he just left them, as if it were all a big gag.

DragonBallFan is reaching, but Hitler is hardly a good person just because he wasn't personally physically violent with others. He certainly wasn't like that because he lacked the stomach for it, and he was extremely abusive and mean spirited in other ways. That is a weak line or reasoning.

As for the Stalin thing...it's easy to die leaving hardly any possessions when your job lets you stay in any luxurious dacha you like, waited upon by dozens of servants who will see to your every whim. Stalin owned nothing and yet he had everything.

[Riedquat]

why can't you understand that it is impossible for me to even comprehend genocidal dictators or serial killers because of my hyper empathy and compassion? they have to be some sort of aberration to me.

You can't have hyper empathy if you can't understand them. The ability to be able to see the world through someone else's eyes, no matter how different they are from you, is what empathy is. It doesn't mean that you're not horrified by the view you get there - to empathise with someone isn't to sympathise with them.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

Yeah I'm not sure how him not personally killing someone really matters. He knew very well the weight of his actions, and I'd think anybody would consider it practically the same.

It matters because many people ordered the killing of other people, welcomed the killing of other people even and yet, are not killers. Or are you willing to call yourself a killer, after you killed in self-defense or in defense of your loved ones? What about the members of a firing squad? Or the guards serving in a death row? What do you call people who do not mourn the death of ISIS-members? Or what about the gold and the diamond in the ring of your wife, did you consider where that came from? There's a myriad of reasons to order the killing, welcome the killing, or otherwise facilitate the death of people and still not be a killer yourself. All it takes is a mind-construct that gives you a good enough reason or excuse or a way to get your mind away from it happening. A killer does not need a moral justification for the deaths he causes, he wants the deaths to happen, the death of other beings is a killer's end-goal. Hitler obviously needed a moral justification and you can even read his justifications in his book "Mein Kampf" (a boring mess, but it literally has all the infos you need to understand what was going on in his head and it had a road-map for the things to come, so if people at the time had actually read it, a lot of things could have gone different...). That's the difference.

and how is my statement about not comprehending his actions a contradiction?

Because you can not, by definition, be "hyper empathetic" and not understand a human's motivations. Because you can't go around and proclaim you'd kill a baby Hitler without a second thought and be compassionate.

it doesn't matter if he never killed anyone personally, anyone who can even order those atrocities is not a human being.

Oh and literally dehumanizing a human being because you do not agree to his or her course of actions, that does indeed make you the monster. If you are truely hyper-empathetic and compassionate, you'd never consider doing what you just did. You are full of hatred yourself and, like Hitler, you are just one step away from having a good enough reason and excuse.

you are the one who brought up the time travel baby Hitler thing. and I have backtracked on that already. perhaps I am not really talking about empathy but still, my sense of right and wrong make it impossible to see how Hitler could do those things unless he was a demon in human form.

and I am dehumanizing an individual, not an entire people and I try not to do that unless it is clear to me that said individual has absolutely no good in them. if he put no value on human life, I don't have to put value on his.

humans show compassion and empathy with others who share traits in common with them, how can I do that with someone who is nothing but hate and cruelty? when I talk about empathy, I am not talking about the understanding others motivation part, my sense of empathy is just the part about realizing others suffer when they are hurt and the part related to that that makes me sickened at the thought of doing immoral things.

and even if I had the chance to kill such an individual, I would not unless it was in the context of justified homicide. I do not condone going out of your way to kill even monsters like Hitler unless this is in the context of a comic book universe and even then, only for pragmatic reasons.

[Riedquat]

warning - none of this post is intending to be horrifically insulting. The subject matter makes it very hard to not sound like that though. Apologies in advance if it comes across as insulting when I'm just attempting to use this subject to illustrate the points I'm making (and eventually you have to touch on the worst to really get to the bottom of things).

and I am dehumanizing an individual, not an entire people and I try not to do that unless it is clear to me that said individual has absolutely no good in them. if he put no value on human life, I don't have to put value on his.

I don't really give much of a damn about the lives of such people either, but you still need to watch yourself. The emotions you describe sound very similar to what you're condemning. Completely different reasons behind them of course, which is a very important difference, but "there's nothing good in them, I couldn't care less" - be very, very careful there.

humans show compassion and empathy with others who share traits in common with them, how can I do that with someone who is nothing but hate and cruelty? when I talk about empathy, I am not talking about the understanding others motivation part, my sense of empathy is just the part about realizing others suffer when they are hurt and the part related to that that makes me sickened at the thought of doing immoral things.

There's a lot more to empathy than simply realising others suffer. Indeed even those without any empathy know that, they just don't care. As for hating, you're demonstrating it yourself so you can't claim nothing in common. And why do you say "nothing but hate and cruelty?" Sure, those were Hitler's defining characteristics, the ones that mattered, but "nothing but"? Careful of over-simplifying and demonising even the worst people, because no-one's that simple - but it makes it easier to hate them. You're demonstrating some empathy, which is a big, important difference, but not a great deal.

and even if I had the chance to kill such an individual, I would not unless it was in the context of justified homicide. I do not condone going out of your way to kill even monsters like Hitler unless this is in the context of a comic book universe and even then, only for pragmatic reasons.

Is there no temptation, even one you fight down and wouldn't give in to? If so then you know what cruelty is too.