The Ship (DS9)

[Meushell]

<i>setting aside the question of why the vorta would even have a sexual/romantic drive</i>

(1) Because they were originally a sexually-reproducing species, and the Founders were not completely successful in wiping out those drives (for that matter, why would they even bother? Cloning may be the more efficient method of reproducing Vorta, but is there any reason why they would care if Vorta had a sex drive if it did not interfere with their goals?)

(2) Perhaps there is some sexual reproduction of Vorta to produce new Vorta varieties. Sexual reproduction is often used to produce new plant varieties that are then propagated through asexual means. Even when most of the plants produced for commercial use are sterile, there are usually some fertile versions that are used for breeding new varieties.

Yeah, I agree with these points myself. We have also seen that a Vorta template can differ from one clone to the next. I can also see two Vorta just exploring the idea out of curiosity, similar to the way Weyoun tries hard to appreciate art.

[bubba0077]

It's hardly the first time Chuck has referenced Magic the Gathering (Mind Bomb), but still unexpected to hear a quote from a Magic Pro dropped in like everyone knows the quote.

[bronnt]

On a serious note I quite like this episode. It's very suspenseful. Though I agree with the criticism that the whole "No one had to die" is kind of moot since that happened before Kilana approached him - maybe Ben meant if she'd approached him first instead of firing on the runabout? I don't know.

That's always bugged me about this episode. The Dominion are the clear aggressors, and they open fire and kill 2 officers on the runabout without any provocation. At that point, you're a fool to trust them. There's no reason to bemoan it later. Consider this: Those two officers were in no position to threaten their god or their mission aside from the possibility that they could beam the crew up or signal for reinforcements. But they had already called for reinforcements anyway. It was tactically and strategically unnecessary to blow up the runabout.

So the moralizing about "If we could just trust each other" at the end is poorly done. When you're the victim, you're not just as culpable for violence as the aggressor is.

[Madner Kami]

On a serious note I quite like this episode. It's very suspenseful. Though I agree with the criticism that the whole "No one had to die" is kind of moot since that happened before Kilana approached him - maybe Ben meant if she'd approached him first instead of firing on the runabout? I don't know.

That's always bugged me about this episode. The Dominion are the clear aggressors, and they open fire and kill 2 officers on the runabout without any provocation. At that point, you're a fool to trust them. There's no reason to bemoan it later. Consider this: Those two officers were in no position to threaten their god or their mission aside from the possibility that they could beam the crew up or signal for reinforcements. But they had already called for reinforcements anyway. It was tactically and strategically unnecessary to blow up the runabout.

So the moralizing about "If we could just trust each other" at the end is poorly done. When you're the victim, you're not just as culpable for violence as the aggressor is.

Last time I checked, it was the Federation that repeatedly ignored warnings sent by the Dominion, to not fiddle about their posessions in the Gamma Quadrant, not the other way around. The Federation are the agressors in the Gamma Quadrant and the Dominion, as morally evil as they are, are the ones being invaded.

[Rocketboy1313]

Last time I checked, it was the Federation that repeatedly ignored warnings sent by the Dominion, to not fiddle about their posessions in the Gamma Quadrant, not the other way around. The Federation are the agressors in the Gamma Quadrant and the Dominion, as morally evil as they are, are the ones being invaded.

That really depends on how much validity you invest in the Dominions claims on the entire quarter of the galaxy.
And even if you say that area is under their control, that doesn't mean they are not still the default aggressor when the Federation encounters them.

Look at it this way the Dominion didn't have to shoot down the runabout. Give the Federation a means of escape, demand they leave the planet, and when they go, THEN go to the surface, rescue the Founder, and scuttle the ship. By trapping Sisko and the others they created the situation that directly led to the Changeling's death.

[Madner Kami]

Last time I checked, it was the Federation that repeatedly ignored warnings sent by the Dominion, to not fiddle about their posessions in the Gamma Quadrant, not the other way around. The Federation are the agressors in the Gamma Quadrant and the Dominion, as morally evil as they are, are the ones being invaded.

That really depends on how much validity you invest in the Dominions claims on the entire quarter of the galaxy.
And even if you say that area is under their control, that doesn't mean they are not still the default aggressor when the Federation encounters them.

Look at it this way the Dominion didn't have to shoot down the runabout. Give the Federation a means of escape, demand they leave the planet, and when they go, THEN go to the surface, rescue the Founder, and scuttle the ship. By trapping Sisko and the others they created the situation that directly led to the Changeling's death.

You really do not need to argue about whether the Dominion stepped into their own crap all the time, because they did, they actively brought themselves into all these situations, but the fact of the matter is, that the Federation choose to trespass over and over and over again.

[Durandal_1707]

Last time I checked, it was the Federation that repeatedly ignored warnings sent by the Dominion, to not fiddle about their posessions in the Gamma Quadrant, not the other way around. The Federation are the agressors in the Gamma Quadrant and the Dominion, as morally evil as they are, are the ones being invaded.

That really depends on how much validity you invest in the Dominions claims on the entire quarter of the galaxy.

They certainly had a better claim to that area than the Federation did.

And even if you say that area is under their control, that doesn't mean they are not still the default aggressor when the Federation encounters them.

Look at it this way the Dominion didn't have to shoot down the runabout. Give the Federation a means of escape, demand they leave the planet, and when they go, THEN go to the surface, rescue the Founder, and scuttle the ship. By trapping Sisko and the others they created the situation that directly led to the Changeling's death.

The Dominion's a hostile nation, and they kept flying warships straight into their territory. What did they think would happen? What do you think would happen today if you, say, started flying F-35s straight into Russian territory on the regular?

[Archanubis]

Last time I checked, it was the Federation that repeatedly ignored warnings sent by the Dominion, to not fiddle about their posessions in the Gamma Quadrant, not the other way around. The Federation are the agressors in the Gamma Quadrant and the Dominion, as morally evil as they are, are the ones being invaded.

That really depends on how much validity you invest in the Dominions claims on the entire quarter of the galaxy.

They certainly had a better claim to that area than the Federation did.

And even if you say that area is under their control, that doesn't mean they are not still the default aggressor when the Federation encounters them.

Look at it this way the Dominion didn't have to shoot down the runabout. Give the Federation a means of escape, demand they leave the planet, and when they go, THEN go to the surface, rescue the Founder, and scuttle the ship. By trapping Sisko and the others they created the situation that directly led to the Changeling's death.

The Dominion's a hostile nation, and they kept flying warships straight into their territory. What did they think would happen? What do you think would happen today if you, say, started flying F-35s straight into Russian territory on the regular?

I think the point being missed is that the DS9 folks weren't in Dominion territory during this episode. Yes, they were in the Gamma Quadrant, which the Dominion "claims" as their area of influence (a sort of evil, fictional version of the Monroe Doctrine), but I think they make a point that the planet the DS9 people are surveying isn't close to actual claimed Dominion territory (though apparently close enough for an errant Jem'Hadar ship to crash on it). In essence, this is a bit more like the US and Russia fighting over a Tu-95 bomber that crashed landed on an unclaimed desert island in the middle of the Pacific.

[Durandal_1707]

Almost the very first thing we hear from a Jem'Hadar in the entire series is: "We will no longer stand by and allow your ships to violate our territory." It doesn't matter what the Federation considers Dominion territory to be; the Dominion clearly considers the other side of the wormhole to be theirs, and like I said before, they've got a better claim on it than the Federation does.

Rather than an island in the Pacific, I'd say this is more like finding a hole in the Earth that, when you go through it, pops you out in some crappy barely populated part of outer Siberia. And then proceeding to regularly send military vehicles through it, and even start a colony. "But I didn't see any Russian towns here!"

[Rocketboy1313]

Almost the very first thing we hear from a Jem'Hadar in the entire series is: "We will no longer stand by and allow your ships to violate our territory." It doesn't matter what the Federation considers Dominion territory to be; the Dominion clearly considers the other side of the wormhole to be theirs, and like I said before, they've got a better claim on it than the Federation does.

I don't really understand your position. I don't consider them to have legitimate claim on the entire Gamma Quadrant.
They said that after massacring innocent people in an area of space that they had made no overt display of ownership of and made no effort to establish diplomatic contact prior to warn people off. Even if their government weren't abhorrent with their oppression they would still be considered a bad faith participant because of how poorly they conduct diplomacy.