Trump Lambasting Diverse Congress People

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Concentration camps

This is a problem with language.

By the strict definition, ICE facilities are indeed "concentration camps," as in, people are concentrated within them. But the flip side of that is that there's nothing innately offensive about the notion of a concentration camp - every nation in the world runs some flavor of camp, most run several. It's simply unavoidable once you reach any kind of scale, and it is not generally considered to be inhumane.

But of course, when an American hears the term "concentration camp," they don't think "place where people are temporarily housed for some reason." They think extermination facility. And if ICE is actually running anything like that, then I haven't seen any evidence of it. Frankly, even attempting to draw parallels between "confining people to a location under legitimate authority" and "herding people into Zyklon-B showers" is at best deeply misleading and at worst outright offensive, but there you go.

Wait, so what about using the term "internment" camps? Would that be seen as undermining the issue, as the left sees it?

That alone has a pretty dark connotation to it, and it seems closer to what's going on than what we commonly associate as concentration camps, that being what the nazis carried out.

[clearspira]

Actually they're these kinds of concentration camps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internmen ... _Americans

You may remember this as roughly the third most shameful chapter in American history (after the genocides and letting slavery continue into the mid-late 19th century).

Ignoring of course that these camps are more concentrated and prone to disease than those were.
Also y'know in terms of "stages of genocide" there is no intermediate step between "concentration camp" and "extermination camps". It's a smooth transition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_stages_of_genocide

Good to know you're willing to do the work of brownshirts and deny these are humans who don't deserve such treatment though.

Except for the fact that Japanese Americans and people trying to illegally enter the country are not the same thing. Good try though.

Oh, and if you honestly think that either Trump or modern America would allow an actual extermination camp then you should stop sniffing glue frankly.

[LittleRaven]

Actually they're these kinds of concentration camps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internmen ... _Americans

Do you really think that 60% of the people in ICE facilities are US citizens? That they are having their constitutional rights violated on a daily basis? Why on Earth isn't the ACLU on this, if that's the case? Finding a judge that would shut that down in a heartbeat would be easy, and yet, I haven't seen anyone suggesting anything remotely resembling that claim.

Also y'know in terms of "stages of genocide" there is no intermediate step between "concentration camp" and "extermination camps". It's a smooth transition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_stages_of_genocide

Sure, but if we accept this interpretation of current events, then Canada is just as poised for genocide as Rwanda was in 1993. After all, they have camps too!

The CBSA says there were 6,609 people detained in holding centres in 2017-18, up from 4,248 a year earlier. There were 1,831 detainees held in jails last year, compared to 971 in 2016-17.

Stephanie Silverman, who is with migrant advocacy group Thinking Forward Network, says detainees have their cases reviewed at certain intervals -- the first within 48 hours of detention, again after seven days, and then every 30 days until their detention is resolved.

"It can only really be resolved through release into the community, usually on conditions, or through deportation," says Silverman, noting there's no limit on how long a person can be held.

"It could be 48 hours before you get out, it could be three months, or it could be five years."

In 2017-18, the CBSA reported 3.8 per cent of detainees were held for more than 99 days, while 47.2 per cent were held for 24 hours or less. The rest were held somewhere between 25-48 hours and 40-99 days.

...

Janet Dench, executive director of the Canadian Council for Refugees, says those in immigration holding centres are afforded an adequate amount of food and water but have limited amenities.

"They're not allowed to have internet access which makes it very difficult for them to communicate with family members or others that may be able to help them get the documents that they need," she says, adding that detainees also have restricted access to phone calls.

The CBSA says it provides on-site access to NGOs and legal counsel at holding centres where possible, and notes that a detainee can ask to speak to a CBSA officer at any time, or ask to see legal counsel or an NGO rep.

The agency also says it has on-site medical, nursing, psychological and psychiatric care within CBSA-run facilities. Those with special needs are dealt with on a case-by-case, it says.

Detainees held in jails are subject to the same rules as inmates. If a jail goes into lockdown, detainees have to deal with the situation and it can be difficult for family and others to visit them, Dench says.

"We're talking about people here who have not been accused of any crime, and yet they are treated according to rules that are invented and problematic in themselves for people who are accused or convicted of a crime," she says. "(It's) completely unfair."

But no reasonable person thinks this, because that is completely insane. There is a world of difference between rounding up your own citizens and placing potential immigrants into holding facilities while you process their claims, and only someone who is intentionally trying to distort the narrative would suggest otherwise.

[LittleRaven]

Wait, so what about using the term "internment" camps? Would that be seen as undermining the issue, as the left sees it?

Same basic problem, just slightly less extreme. Sure, technically, ICE facilities are "internment camps," but again, when an American hears that term, they don't hear the technical definition. They (rightfully) hear "place where American citizens are unconstitutionally detained for months or years at a time, and have their property unconstitutionally seized merely because of their race."

Again, if ICE is doing anything like that, I haven't heard about it.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Wait, so what about using the term "internment" camps? Would that be seen as undermining the issue, as the left sees it?

Same basic problem, just slightly less extreme. Sure, technically, ICE facilities are "internment camps," but again, when an American hears that term, they don't hear the technical definition. They (rightfully) hear "place where American citizens are unconstitutionally detained for months or years at a time, and have their property unconstitutionally seized merely because of their race."

Again, if ICE is doing anything like that, I haven't heard about it.

Hmmm yeah. Good catch there.

A takeaway that I'm getting is that use of the term "concentration" isn't supposed to echo the camps of the Nazi party. I mean that's not how I've considered the detention facilities, and I don't think anybody has gone so far as to say that that's what these are, just that comparisons of the Trump administration to a budding fascist regime isn't particularly uncommon. I guess in a sense, it's the budding aspect that people are rallying against through and through.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Trump walks back his comments, saying congresswoman is pro-terrorist:

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/donald-t ... 56252.html

[CmdrKing]

Except for the fact that Japanese Americans and people trying to illegally enter the country are not the same thing. Good try though.

So you're taking the position "only Americans are human"

Oh, and if you honestly think that either Trump or modern America would allow an actual extermination camp then you should stop sniffing glue frankly.

And wonder why I think anyone who believes ICE and Republicans generally aren't itching to bring on the firing squads are delusional?

But no reasonable person thinks this, because that is completely insane. There is a world of difference between rounding up your own citizens and placing potential immigrants into holding facilities while you process their claims, and only someone who is intentionally trying to distort the narrative would suggest otherwise.

Are the Canadians crowding people at "standing room only 24/7"? Intentionally breaking family units? Actively raiding major cities to send more people to the camps?

Now full disclosure, even standard US prison conditions are very likely human rights violations. But where the Canadian detention centers are those, the current Trump Camps are run like Dachau-style concentration camps, including the part where staff are raging bigots who want reasons to abuse prisoners.

[Darth Wedgius]

Anyone remember the a flood of Jews and Romani into Germany after the concentration camps were set up? I can't find any reference to any, but people are still trying to sneak into the U.S. after these "concentration camps" are set up. It's almost as if the two are very different. But that can't be it,l because AOC said "never again" and Shaun King said that history tells us that concentration camps should be shut down, and if this isn't the same situation then that would be a little bit dishonest.

I'll check Wikipedia again. I must have just missed it.

The original Trump tweet is something I very much disliked, because they're Americans, this is their country as much as it is mine, and I don't like any implication to the contrary no matter how little I think of the fraud squad. But criticizing a group of "diverse" people is fine with me because "diverse" people screw up just like "non-diverse" people do. I'm not going to hold women or ethnic minorities to different standard.

[Yukaphile]

The problem really is in the white patriarchal power structure of this country. That's slowly diminishing, but it doesn't change overnight.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The original Trump tweet is something I very much disliked, because they're Americans, this is their country as much as it is mine, and I don't like any implication to the contrary no matter how little I think of the fraud squad. But criticizing a group of "diverse" people is fine with me because "diverse" people screw up just like "non-diverse" people do. I'm not going to hold women or ethnic minorities to different standard.

Well it's a good thing that that bit about diversity was cleared up for anyone thinking otherwise. Thank you.