Trump Lambasting Diverse Congress People

[CmdrKing]

Anyone remember the a flood of Jews and Romani into Germany after the concentration camps were set up? I can't find any reference to any, but people are still trying to sneak into the U.S. after these "concentration camps" are set up. It's almost as if the two are very different.

Indeed. I'm pretty sure neither pre-unification Germany nor the Weimar republic spent centuries building their entire national myth around the strength of unity and the value of immigration.

And obviously the Romani and Jewish folk of early 20th century europe had no ethnic Nation-of-origin for any incarnation of Germany to intentionally destablize as the US destablized most of Central America in the 80s in order to generate conditions causing an absolute surge of refugees.

Even if we're going to pretend the "Only Americans deserve human rights in America" stance is defensible, the US still has a moral duty to the vast, vast majority of refugees in the camps.

[LittleRaven]

Are the Canadians crowding people at "standing room only 24/7"? Intentionally breaking family units? Actively raiding major cities to send more people to the camps?

You are subtlety shifting your argument in a few ways here that I think deserve more attention, because I think they serve to bring us closer to agreement.

Originally, you said this.

Also y'know in terms of "stages of genocide" there is no intermediate step between "concentration camp" and "extermination camps". It's a smooth transition.

Now you appear to be saying that the details of the camps matter. I don't disagree with you, by the way - the details always matter. Things like the eight stages of genocide are useful as a generality, but you have to be very careful about applying them to specific cases or you will drown in false positives. It's not as simple as camps -> extermination, because almost every country in the world runs camps of one flavor or another, and they almost never lead to extermination. Getting to the extermination phase requires a lot of other elements that have only ever really come together in a handful of cases around the world.

Second, you appear to be shifting your complaint about the camps from the concept of ICE facilities to the implementation of ICE facilities. This is a very important distinction, and again, one that I agree with, but I confess that I'm surprised to hear it from you given the disdain for Pelosi that you expressed earlier in the thread. After all, if the problem with the facilities is that current conditions are bad, then what we should be doing is giving ICE more money so they can build more facilities with better conditions...which is exactly what Pelosi did just a week ago, and she's received nothing but hate from the Left for doing so.

[Worffan101]

Trump is an idiot racist. News at 11.

This is just him making smoke and noise to distract from the fact that Mueller's gonna be testifying soon (tm) and that's potentially devastating. As in "Individual One, who is currently the President of the United States, almost certainly gave orders to his subordinates to destroy evidence not only showing collusion with the Russian government, but also of the destruction itself", level devastating.

[Darth Wedgius]

Anyone remember the a flood of Jews and Romani into Germany after the concentration camps were set up? I can't find any reference to any, but people are still trying to sneak into the U.S. after these "concentration camps" are set up. It's almost as if the two are very different.

Indeed. I'm pretty sure neither pre-unification Germany nor the Weimar republic spent centuries building their entire national myth around the strength of unity and the value of immigration.

And obviously the Romani and Jewish folk of early 20th century europe had no ethnic Nation-of-origin for any incarnation of Germany to intentionally destablize as the US destablized most of Central America in the 80s in order to generate conditions causing an absolute surge of refugees.

Even if we're going to pretend the "Only Americans deserve human rights in America" stance is defensible, the US still has a moral duty to the vast, vast majority of refugees in the camps.

Who is making the claim that only Americans deserve human rights? I believe that to be largely a straw man argument. If you're saying that human rights include roaming around the country unfettered, then your idea of human rights and my own do not agree.

Nor is our entire national myth built around either the strength of unity nor the value of immigration. Both are prized, but not to the exclusion of many other things, including abiding by the law and rugged individualism.

[Yukaphile]

I would agree we have a moral duty, but I can sympathize with certain right-wing talking points, like how "we have a duty to our people first, there's too many people in need across the planet, we can't be the world's police." It's certainly true, but then when they come here looking for aid and help, that murkies it up a bit, especially when we are guilty, at least the government is, for what happened in their homelands decades ago, destabilizing everything. In the end, this is an extremely complicated issue that, while yes, has a few goalposts on black and white morality, simply put, is way too convoluted to solve in our lifetimes. I mean, this has been going on since Ike. I will say those in the GOP leadership who take pleasure in watching these people suffer are pure evil, and literally the type who blame everything and everyone for the problems in their lives but themselves. White people are no longer breeding? Latinos are gonna outnumber us in 2050? Who gives a shit? White people will NEVER die. So... stop using that as an excuse to put a fucking pedophile in charge of a center!

[CmdrKing]

Little Raven: nah. I’m arguing that Trump camps are concentration camps even by your “must be Nazi tier” definition. As suggested in the unquoted portion of my post, I consider what the Canadians are doing deeply unethical as well, but I am willing to accept that they don’t rise to the level of Dachau, which apparently is our bar for this conversation.

Darth: your argument hinges on the premise that, as non-citizens, the people in these camps do not deserve full human rights as outlined in the US constitution. When you exclude a group from human rights, you exclude them from humanity.
It’s not a straw man, it’s stating clearly the required beliefs to hold that position. If it seems monstrous, *change your position*

[Yukaphile]

Oh come on! They're not shoving people into gas chambers or ovens or shooting them in front of a firing squad...

[Yukaphile]

I do agree not to exclude them from humanity, but then humanity is an abstract scope. So, I can sort of get Darth's arguments here. We have a responsibility to look after our own people, unless we had open borders like the nations of the EU do, which we don't. That's not an invalid way to think. In that scenario, literally just shut down all immigration. Would it be controversial as hell? Sure. But in a way, it's the ultimate fairness, where some countries get easier treatment and can make it here better than those in worse off nations. We are not obligated to be the world's policemen. I hate that mindset.

[CmdrKing]

Yuka: look up Dachau, then some of the stories from AOC or Pence’s tours of the camps. Then get back to me on the comparison i’m Making.

[LittleRaven]

Little Raven: nah. I’m arguing that Trump camps are concentration camps even by your “must be Nazi tier” definition. As suggested in the unquoted portion of my post, I consider what the Canadians are doing deeply unethical as well, but I am willing to accept that they don’t rise to the level of Dachau, which apparently is our bar for this conversation.

You can't be serious.

32000 people died at Dachau. And those are only the ones we have documentation on, most historians believe that many more thousands passed in obscurity. Prisoners were forced to labor in order to produce munitions for the Third Reich while Sigmund Rascher conducted sadistic and generally fatal 'medical experiments' on human subjects. Floggings and "pole-hangings" were standard disciplinary techniques. Starvation reigned supreme, and a massive crematorium had to be constructed on site to handle the staggering number of bodies that were generated on a daily basis.

Exactly what part of that reminds you of ICE facilities?!? And frankly, if you honestly believe that ICE is doing THAT to people, why the hell are you arguing on a forum instead of grabbing a rifle and heading to a camp? How can you sit by while a crime like THAT is taking place in your name?