Trump Lambasting Diverse Congress People

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LittleRaven
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Re: Trump Lambasting Diverse Congress People

Post by LittleRaven »

CmdrKing wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:00 amAnyways, I used Dachau as the example specifically because it was the first and longest running camp. The point is to evoke not 1944 Germany, but 1934 Germany. Because honestly there is no other language I can find to stress that these things do not simply stop on their own.
Fair enough. But as I see it, there are only two ways to stop this thing.
  1. Bring enough American voters over to your side that you start winning a lot of elections.
  2. Pick up a rifle.
You're not real keen on option 2 - for perfectly understandable reasons - that one is always VERY messy. That leaves you with option 1.

Now, I'm a college-educated life-long Democratic voter. I've never pulled a level for a Republican above the local level. I regularly donate money to Democratic candidates. I have lived most of my life on the border, and my grandfather crossed it from Mexico less than 100 years ago, so I have no fear of brown people. By Texas standards, I am one step short of a communist, although admittedly by California standards I am decidedly centrist. So statistically speaking, I am about as open to your argument as any American voter is likely to be. I am more that willing to listen to your proposed policies and engage with them in good faith.

So if you're having trouble winning me over, then you're really going to struggle in Pennsylvania or Wisconsin. And that's a big problem, because if you actually want to replace Trump, you don't need people like me. You need white, uneducated, rural voters in Northampton, who kind of ARE afraid of brown people and are not super fond of Democrats in general. And frankly, I suspect comparisons to Dachau will not be very helpful, because when you say that word, nobody thinks Dachau in 1934, nor is it reasonable to expect them to. 1934 Dachau is not world-famous, forever immortalized Dachau. And yes, you can then go and clarify and explain what you really meant, but by that point, a whole lot of people have already written you off as a kook, and you'll have to work twice as hard to get them to take you seriously again.
Because despite the trolling, the 2nd Amendment is a laughable defense against true government overreach in the 21st century. A bit like using bows and arrows against Spanish armor and muskets.
A quick glance at the Middle East suggests this isn't true, though. Yes, YOU, armed with an AR, are not going to make much of a dent in things. You and 3 million other Americans (~1% of the population) armed with ARs and willing to use them....you can probably make America ungovernable. No, you can't beat the US military, but then again, you don't have to. The US military is an unbelievably expensive organization that relies on a powerful economy and well-organized supply lines to keep it fed. One sniper in a car managed to terrorize the East Coast for weeks. I'm not at all convinced our government could deal with a million Americans willing to start gunning down their fellow citizens.

But let's hope it doesn't come to that.
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Karha of Honor
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Re: Trump Lambasting Diverse Congress People

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CmdrKing wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:00 am

Because despite the trolling, the 2nd Amendment is a laughable defense against true government overreach in the 21st century. A bit like using bows and arrows against Spanish armor and muskets.
No they are using very similar kind of guns and there is a limited amount of aircrafts, drones and tanks.
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Re: Trump Lambasting Diverse Congress People

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Karha of Honor wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:14 pm
CmdrKing wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:00 am

Because despite the trolling, the 2nd Amendment is a laughable defense against true government overreach in the 21st century. A bit like using bows and arrows against Spanish armor and muskets.
No they are using very similar kind of guns and there is a limited amount of aircrafts, drones and tanks.
And you know someone who has a defence against those limited amount of aircrafts, drones and tanks? I'll clue you in: unless you know someone packing some $50,000 dollar a shot missiles then no you don't.
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Re: Trump Lambasting Diverse Congress People

Post by clearspira »

Oh, and as I have said before on here whenever these type of ''America grab your guns and rise up'' discussions happen: your average modern Western man or woman lives a life that is far too comfortable to fight a war against trained soldiers for a prolonged period. They're a varying combination of too fat, too lazy, too used to conveniences like running water, hot food and the internet, not really all that acquainted with real pain, and lacking practical skills. An uprising will last weeks before they realise ''hey, this isn't as fun as all them movies made out'' and wave the white flag.

And frankly, if you think otherwise, you need to get that Rambo fantasy out of your head.
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Re: Trump Lambasting Diverse Congress People

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What I absolutely refuse to tolerate is the blaming of those who refuse to get involved. For Germans, we just love collectively shaming the German civilian population, especially the Germanic white people, because seven decades of nonstop Allied propaganda blasting in our entertainment and news and media about how they were collectively guilty is damned hard to fight. But even though the corrupt, evil Nazi leadership favored white people, I can really sympathize to those average civilians in the country who could see what was happening, felt sadness, horrified, but didn't wanna rock the boat because they just wanted to keep their heads down. These far-left purity nutcases will insist they're guilty simply because "they should've done something!" That we have a moral obligation to stop evil. Well, the larger problem here is, when, where, how, what, why? We can't be the world's policemen, and the fight against evil is never-ending. It is never going to go away. And evil touches every one of us, even the noblest of us. Even if Trump loses next year, a century from now it's gonna be another crisis, another new evil, another evil Fascist empire that gets collectively shamed, it's going to be more death, more blaming, more nonstop conflict. Human nature remains fixed and unchanged, and progress, for as few tiny baby steps as we've made, is an illusion. History repeats, and I've just given up. I only care about looking out for those close to me and my friends. Plus, it's damned hard to help if you don't have money. Money is literally what fuels our whole civilization, from the poor nations to the richest, and if you don't have money, there's very little practical assistance you can offer. If I had the money, I'd help. Other than that, I refuse to fight and die for a country and a species I've marked off as a bad joke. That said, I am willing to still die for my own personal principles. Just not this.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
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Karha of Honor
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Re: Trump Lambasting Diverse Congress People

Post by Karha of Honor »

clearspira wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:47 pm
Karha of Honor wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:14 pm
CmdrKing wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:00 am

Because despite the trolling, the 2nd Amendment is a laughable defense against true government overreach in the 21st century. A bit like using bows and arrows against Spanish armor and muskets.
No they are using very similar kind of guns and there is a limited amount of aircrafts, drones and tanks.
And you know someone who has a defence against those limited amount of aircrafts, drones and tanks? I'll clue you in: unless you know someone packing some $50,000 dollar a shot missiles then no you don't.
They have infinite bombs?
How are they gonna track down everyone to make sure they behave?
clearspira wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:55 pm Oh, and as I have said before on here whenever these type of ''America grab your guns and rise up'' discussions happen: your average modern Western man or woman lives a life that is far too comfortable to fight a war against trained soldiers for a prolonged period. They're a varying combination of too fat, too lazy, too used to conveniences like running water, hot food and the internet, not really all that acquainted with real pain, and lacking practical skills. An uprising will last weeks before they realise ''hey, this isn't as fun as all them movies made out'' and wave the white flag.

And frankly, if you think otherwise, you need to get that Rambo fantasy out of your head.
They also will run from real fucking tyranny vec ause they want those soft fun things. Not the special ops and the marines but the army also comes from a similar background.
US army morale is already bad this year, imagine if they have to fight civilians.
Also there are veterans with know how all over the United States. Also a lot of soldiers would break when they have to move down unarmed people and kids.
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Re: Trump Lambasting Diverse Congress People

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CmdrKing wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:00 am Anyways, I used Dachau as the example specifically because it was the first and longest running camp. The point is to evoke not 1944 Germany, but 1934 Germany. Because honestly there is no other language I can find to stress that these things do not simply stop on their own. Comparing these camps to historical concentration camps is comparing apples to apple blossoms, if you will. That they already meet the full definition of concentration camp (while falling short of the definition of *extermination* camp, yes) emphasizes that yes, this requires active opposition and acknowledging them for what they are to stop.
No, you use Dachau because if you used the ACTUAL concentration camps in the US of the Japanese (and germans) the contrast would show how absolutely wrong and hyperbolic you are.
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Re: Trump Lambasting Diverse Congress People

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clearspira wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:47 pm
Karha of Honor wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:14 pm
CmdrKing wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:00 am

Because despite the trolling, the 2nd Amendment is a laughable defense against true government overreach in the 21st century. A bit like using bows and arrows against Spanish armor and muskets.
No they are using very similar kind of guns and there is a limited amount of aircrafts, drones and tanks.
And you know someone who has a defence against those limited amount of aircrafts, drones and tanks? I'll clue you in: unless you know someone packing some $50,000 dollar a shot missiles then no you don't.
We get it. YOU don't know how to lead an insurgency force. But not everyone is you. Other people have other knowledge.

Quick lesson in asymmetric warfare. DON'T fight the tank. Fight anything other than the tank. Fight the fuel truck. Fight the ammo dump. Fight the crew. Don't fight the tank.
As for planes, run operations out of a forest or, even better, the urban jungle.
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Re: Trump Lambasting Diverse Congress People

Post by LittleRaven »

clearspira wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:47 pmAnd you know someone who has a defence against those limited amount of aircrafts, drones and tanks? I'll clue you in: unless you know someone packing some $50,000 dollar a shot missiles then no you don't.
The "defense" for Americans is where they live. Drones, aircraft, tanks...these are incrediably destructive weapons. If you have to destroy Dallas in order to kill the rebels within it...well, great, rebels are dead...but Dallas is wrecked. And Dallas generates hundreds of millions of dollars of GDP every year. Repeat that a few hundred times and all of sudden there is no gas for those tanks, no spare parts for the airplanes, no power for the drones.

People who think that the US government is immune to internal rebellion seem to think that rebelling Americans would take the field against the US Army. But of course they wouldn't....that would be suicide. They would do what literally everyone does against us in that kind of asymmetrical warfare - blend in with the civilian population, strike at vulnerable targets and exposed infrastructure, and then fade back into the population when the tanks show up. If the tanks don't shoot, they get away. If the tanks DO shoot, they inevitably end up killing innocents, and driving up support for the rebels, making it all the easier for them to do it next time.

This kind of cycle is very difficult to stop once it gets going. We couldn't stop it in Afghanistan, and we couldn't stop it in Iraq, even bringing all of our military firepower and coalition partners to bear. And at least in THOSE cases we were fighting on the other side of the planet and didn't have to worry about wrecking our own country in the process.

Fortunately for us, this kind of cycle isn't all that easy to start either. You would need a LOT of Americans (10s of thousands at the minimum) who were willing to start murdering their countrymen. We are absolutely nowhere near that, and god willing we never will be, but if we ever get to Dachau 1943, then I think it's very possible that we would be, and I'm not at all convinced that our domestic security could cope.
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Re: Trump Lambasting Diverse Congress People

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Fighting off the US military is a wholly different proposition within the US than elsewhere for another reason though: when you’ve got oceans and mountains between you and the US, you can theoretically achieve victory by being so costly to the military they give up and go home.

The victory condition in the “it’s 1943 Germany oh fuck” scenario is an overthrow of the government. With that in mind, if conventional weapons don’t work... why wouldn’t they blow up Dallas to intimidate the population? And if it fails, and the revolution is succeeding... these are men of power and spite. The modern capacity to scorch the earth rises to the level of extinction event. And men like that would do it.

(Meant to put a longer post here but it’s like nuance and stuff, it can wait until I get home I guess.)
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