Nazis and the Nature of Evil

[Yukaphile]

The big problem here isn't if they had a few minor "good qualities," because most human beings do, so much as how people react to them. They like to look at some of the extreme external pressures they were under, and blame that for it rather than them. It's a logical fallacy in that somebody so normal and mostly of good conscience values can't understand somebody that far into twisted depravity, thus they will assume two wrongs are connected, a series of wrong events led somebody to do something just as wrong as the larger external pressure. And they sometimes will apply sympathizing virtues to them in these situations, treating them as the victims! Or victims too, right alongside their own. We really need a more hard-line attitude to these kind of views.

[Riedquat]

no, I comprehend evil individuals what I can't comprehend is someone doing truly evil things like serial murder or rape and also having any good traits in their personalities.

Because no-one is completely one dimensional. It's easy enough to imagine someone liking one person and not liking another because all of us are like that. Massively exaggerating one side of that doesn't push the other one out of existence. People don't have a good and bad balance that adds up to the same for everyone, just distributed differently.

I still honestly can't picture that. and there is a difference between "hating" someone wile liking others in the colocual sense and hating someone to the point of wanting to torture and kill them. I really cannot imagine what it's like in the mind of someone like Hitler because for me, I literally have a headache at the mere thought of doing something immoral and someone who does those horrible †hings with a clear conscience clearly does not have one in the first place.

There's a difference in the extremes but not in the fundamental emotions. What do you want to do to those people? Presumably not just shrug your shoulders and leave them to it, and can you honestly say you'd even feel bad even about locking them away purely to protect others from them?

[Riedquat]

also, I keep bringing up Albert Fish. that latter he sent to his victim's family read like an r ratted parody of Saturday morning cartoon villains. so, tell me again how mustache twirling pure evil villains don't exist in real life?

Only if you truly believe that there was nothing more to him than that whatsoever. Nothing more that mattered, sure, but again - no-one, even the worst, is so one-dimensional, but painting people as being so is the first step to the type of dehumanisation the worst exploit. Sure, you're only doing it to the worst scum on the planet but again, same basic concept, just a different target and degree - which is of course an important difference, THE important difference even, but don't pretend that every aspect of the mentality is different because there's a lot in common. Which is no surprise because we're all human beings.

[Riedquat]

The big problem here isn't if they had a few minor "good qualities," because most human beings do, so much as how people react to them. They like to look at some of the extreme external pressures they were under, and blame that for it rather than them. It's a logical fallacy in that somebody so normal and mostly of good conscience values can't understand somebody that far into twisted depravity, thus they will assume two wrongs are connected, a series of wrong events led somebody to do something just as wrong as the larger external pressure. And they sometimes will apply sympathizing virtues to them in these situations, treating them as the victims! Or victims too, right alongside their own. We really need a more hard-line attitude to these kind of views.

One problem I have is that sometimes people confuse explanations with justifications. Something might go some way to explaining why someone is the person they are but bring it up and you get excused of trying to justify their behaviour. Two very different things, but again it appears to stem from a desire to paint such people as being 100% bad from birth so no complicated introspection or thought required, great, we can sit in the goodies box and they can sit in the baddies, nice and simple.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

also, I keep bringing up Albert Fish. that latter he sent to his victim's family read like an r ratted parody of Saturday morning cartoon villains. so, tell me again how mustache twirling pure evil villains don't exist in real life?

Only if you truly believe that there was nothing more to him than that whatsoever. Nothing more that mattered, sure, but again - no-one, even the worst, is so one-dimensional, but painting people as being so is the first step to the type of dehumanisation the worst exploit. Sure, you're only doing it to the worst scum on the planet but again, same basic concept, just a different target and degree - which is of course an important difference, THE important difference even, but don't pretend that every aspect of the mentality is different because there's a lot in common. Which is no surprise because we're all human beings.

there is also the fact that with Albert Fish, I have never heard about them showing compassionate sides, the monstrous parts of their personality where the only parts ever talked about from my experience.

[Riedquat]

there is also the fact that with Albert Fish, I have never heard about them showing compassionate sides, the monstrous parts of their personality where the only parts ever talked about from my experience.

Of course the monstrous parts are the ones that are talked about because they're the significant ones. But did he enjoy a decent meal, laugh at some of the same jokes a lot of other people laugh at etc.? I never said anything about compassion, just not being utterly one dimensional. Some people don't appear to have any capability for compassion (possibly more than we think, a lot might not have any particular desire to be nasty either), but these people aren't completely alien creatures, they're other human beings with some aspects of their personality practically non-existant and others dialled up to eleven. How much tweaking would it take - just how many aspects would you need to add or remove, or dial up or down - to turn an ordinary person into a monster?

[Yukaphile]

I think citing "war trauma" for why the Soviets did what they did is a misleading example because it assumes they will be haunted by the horrors of war for the rest of their lives, when rather, what I see is people who exploited the war for personal gain, and will likely look back with glee. It also ties into more of the "good people cannot understand bad people" because my feeling is they would have done the same in civilian life, and so they blame the conflict rather than the man, because good people dislike war and know it's rough. No, the people who were haunted by what happened for the rest of their lives were the victims, while as we see today, when attempting to call them out on it, they insist that never happened and blame the victims for giving the soldiers STDs (rather than the other way around). It's disgusting.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

there is also the fact that with Albert Fish, I have never heard about them showing compassionate sides, the monstrous parts of their personality where the only parts ever talked about from my experience.

Of course the monstrous parts are the ones that are talked about because they're the significant ones. But did he enjoy a decent meal, laugh at some of the same jokes a lot of other people laugh at etc.? I never said anything about compassion, just not being utterly one dimensional. Some people don't appear to have any capability for compassion (possibly more than we think, a lot might not have any particular desire to be nasty either), but these people aren't completely alien creatures, they're other human beings with some aspects of their personality practically non-existant and others dialled up to eleven. How much tweaking would it take - just how many aspects would you need to add or remove, or dial up or down - to turn an ordinary person into a monster?

maybe but I still maintain that if someone does not have compassion, they are not a human being no matter what other traits they may have.

[Yukaphile]

I could agree with that. At least when it comes to the truly big sins.

[Riedquat]

maybe but I still maintain that if someone does not have compassion, they are not a human being no matter what other traits they may have.

Yes, that's how easy it is to demonise. Different targets (ones I'd argue are far, far, far more justified), same mentality.