Should old SciFi be judged by today's standards?

[Zargon]

Most people can tell good CGI form bad CGI, without knowing the cost.

[Independent George]

If we're talking about sets & special effects holding up, let's get something out of the way: the 70s sucked. Really sucked. Badly. The 70s were the dark ages of architecture, art, fashion, decor - look at home magazines from the era if you don't believe me. Anything shot in the 70s with a contemporary aesthetic (like Logan's Run) was already objectively terrible the day it came out, and utterly dated by the time Star Wars (1977) and Alien (1979) were released (yes, I know they were technically also products of the 70s, but they are really 80s movies that happened to come out a few years early). Forbidden Planet (1956), 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968), and Blade Runner (1982) were all very obviously products of their time, but all of them hold up visually and thematically. Heck, you can go back to Metropolis (1927) and still appreciate the design even though the sets are obviously cheesy and fake by modern standards. So when you're talking about how well Doctor Who, OG Battlestar Galactica, or Blake's 7 holds up, just remember that it's the 70s that stands out as a distinct eyesore, because the 70s as a whole were awful. Just awful.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

That's a good point.

While you can judge sets, costumes, and special effects by verisimilitude or just how convincing they are to the audience, that isn't the only standard for as far as what's good or bad. People have different standards in terms of suspension of disbelief. The uncanny valley of CGI can be more distracting than simpler, less advanced technology.

Sometimes these things can be appreciated by their own merits on a technical or aesthetic level. A lot of people love Ray Harryhausen, for example. I love the matte paintings in TOS. If you look, sure, you can tell it's a matte painting, but the aesthetic and style and how well they're crafted just make them awesome to look at. I also give a lot of credit to movies like The War of the Worlds or Them! in just how well they were done in that time with those limitations, and for the fact that they still "hold up" well enough for me to get lost in those films and forget about the effects.

[Madner Kami]

Bad sets and CGI are like noise. The lack of skill or effort is like the lack of any sort of harmony in a music and you can not help but keep getting your attention dragged to it. Try ignoring the jackhammer opening up the road. Or the jet-plane screeching over your home while pulling the wildest maneuvers. It worms it's way into your conciousness, like finger-nails on a chalkboard.

On the other end of the scale, hear your child sing a song badly, hear someone perfectly whistling a melody while not knowing the full song or listen to the music of an 8-bit NES-game and you'll immediatly be taken away and appreciate the effort and fantasy that went into creating the art, allowing your concious thoughts to be taken elsewhere, no matter how limited the means of creation were.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Bad sets and CGI are like noise. The lack of skill or effort is like the lack of any sort of harmony in a music and you can not help but keep getting your attention dragged to it. Try ignoring the jackhammer opening up the road. Or the jet-plane screeching over your home while pulling the wildest maneuvers. It worms it's way into your conciousness, like finger-nails on a chalkboard.

I honestly don't fall victim to this.

I'll go ahead and call this a rant, but it's very easy for me to just role-play with w/ever. Ironic considering I was never into straight RPG video games really.

[CaptainCalvinCat]

Hm - good question. I Germany, we have the "Augsburger Puppenkiste" - (augsburgian puppet box), which provided generations of children with puppet theatre. Next to more famous works like "Jim Knopf und Lukas, der Lokomitivführer " (Jim Button and Luke, the engine driver), they also went into the obscure and provided me with one of my very first sci-fi shows. "Schlupp vom Grünen Stern" (Schlupp of the Green Star), which deals with a household-robot from the far-away planet of Baldasiebenstrichdrei (Balda seven dash three) evolving into having a soul. Of course we don't get Star Trek like ethical debates about the fact, that this robot is developing a soul - quite the contrary. the Baldasiebenstrichdrei-ians are very informal about the situation and want to fire the defect robot on the Junk Planet. But they miss and Schlupp lands on earth, where he is mistaken for the latest vacuum-cleaner and when the Baldasiebenstrichdeiians figure out, that schlupp is still active, they want to destroy him and send Mr. Rrrrrrritschwumm (No, I'm not making that name up) to earth in order to destroy Schupp.

This show, other productions of the Augsburger Puppenkiste, Classic Star Trek, TNG, you name it - all of those have their own charme and shoud not be judged by today's standard. Because if you do that, you see that Kirk is not standing on the surface of Sigma Dracis II, but on Soundstage 3, a.k.a. "Planet Hell". Sure, you bring in more sophistication, but you lose the charme of the old classics.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Hm - good question. I Germany, we have the "Augsburger Puppenkiste" - (augsburgian puppet box), which provided generations of children with puppet theatre. Next to more famous works like "Jim Knopf und Lukas, der Lokomitivführer " (Jim Button and Luke, the engine driver), they also went into the obscure and provided me with one of my very first sci-fi shows. "Schlupp vom Grünen Stern" (Schlupp of the Green Star), which deals with a household-robot from the far-away planet of Baldasiebenstrichdrei (Balda seven dash three) evolving into having a soul. Of course we don't get Star Trek like ethical debates about the fact, that this robot is developing a soul - quite the contrary. the Baldasiebenstrichdrei-ians are very informal about the situation and want to fire the defect robot on the Junk Planet. But they miss and Schlupp lands on earth, where he is mistaken for the latest vacuum-cleaner and when the Baldasiebenstrichdeiians figure out, that schlupp is still active, they want to destroy him and send Mr. Rrrrrrritschwumm (No, I'm not making that name up) to earth in order to destroy Schupp.

This show, other productions of the Augsburger Puppenkiste, Classic Star Trek, TNG, you name it - all of those have their own charme and shoud not be judged by today's standard. Because if you do that, you see that Kirk is not standing on the surface of Sigma Dracis II, but on Soundstage 3, a.k.a. "Planet Hell". Sure, you bring in more sophistication, but you lose the charme of the old classics.

Well that's an fun story structure you've described despite not providing Star Trek like ethical debates about the fact but to the contrary, framing the picture of a robot developing a soul. But hell if I were to say that such type of narrative is estranged from me. That sounds a lot like Forrest Gump to some extent, where in spite of the fact that he comes off as a dimwitted good ol' boy, he stumbles through of history's most iconic events. Really not sure what to call such types of story, but it sure does serve to reflect upon the societal landscape that the main character interacts with.

[Zargon]

This really is a personal standard....and it's not just for Sci Fi, but all of TV and movies.

A lot of Old stuff is bad...but then so is a lot of newer stuff. Avatar is mostly CGI spam, and I'd watch Tron over that anyday. But, sure, Avengers Endgame had great effects.

Doctor Who did a good enough job with effects. They had a small budget...so lots of aliens and foes did NOT shoot 'beems that go pew pew'. For a LONG time the Darleks just 'progected raration' with no beam. The Maratins had the 'gravity crushing' weapons(no beam). The best was the Master who for years and years had his....Tissue Compression Eliminator....that shrunk and killed people(leaving them as ;dead' dolls..wink wink). Still that was a weird and creepy way to kill people...and made a nice story point.

Then you have Star Trek Discovery...big budget, lots of computers...and for the season 2 ending they do a massive 'star wars' pwe pwe CGI spam battle. Guess it's better to some....

[Riedquat]

Then you have Star Trek Discovery...big budget, lots of computers...and for the season 2 ending they do a massive 'star wars' pwe pwe CGI spam battle. Guess it's better to some....

Whether that's OK or not depends upon how gratuituous it was. Lots of splosions for the sake of it, no real idea WTH was going on but that didn't matter because neither did anyone creating it, or a battle that ebbed and flowed, you could tell who was getting the upper hand, who was stuggling, and it didn't feel over the top for the sake of it (an "over the top for the sake of it" doesn't necessarily mean anything big and spectacular is that)?

I suppose I find that looks-wise what matters isn't so much how good it looks in absolute terms but how well they did with the tools they had available.

[Artabax]

Most people can tell good CGI form bad CGI, without knowing the cost.

I watched classic WHO in black and white and loved it.
Watching the repeats in full colour, the monsters are shit.