Trump Lambasting Diverse Congress People

[Draco Dracul]

That's bureaucratic incompetence born from racism, not deliberate bureaucratic torture and murder born from racism. The feel-good far left purity-fueled emotionalism is what drove me into the center with views like that.

We've run prisons for centuries, we know how to feed people enough so they aren't facing starvation even when budgeted just 3 dollars per person per day. The only reason to have someone losing weight that rapidly is the deliberate withholding of adequate food supplies. I'm going to be honest, I think thousands will die in those camps before the Trump administration is finished from sickness (the boy in question hadn't been able to shower in 23 days and there is no reason to believe the conditions are any better for anyone else), heat stroke (the McAllen site kept hundreds of men in non-air conditioned facilities in the Texas), and starvation. And there is a good chance we won't find out until years after the fact because ICE will actively cover up the information.

[Admiral X]

They already are.
For example.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/07/a-u-s-citizen-has-been-in-immigration-custody-for-weeks.html

Bureaucratic neglect is not the same as systematic murder.

[LittleRaven]

The Dallas citizen has been released, by the way.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/07/23/francisco-galicia-us-citizen-held-cbp-ice-three-weeks-released

His case was....somewhat unique.

Francisco Galicia was born in Dallas in December 2000 at Parkland Memorial Hospital, according to a copy of his birth certificate provided to The News by his attorney, Claudia Galan.

When he was about a year old, his mother moved back to Mexico, pregnant with his younger brother, Marlon Galicia, who was born there.

Sanjuana Galicia said she then decided that she needed to escape the violence around her in Reynosa, a border city that Mexican drug cartels fight over to control drug smuggling routes into the U.S.

But she feared she might not be able to travel legally across the border with her sons.

The problem was that she wasn’t listed as Francisco’s mother on his birth certificate because she was using a fake ID when she was living and working in Dallas. Parkland staff used the name on that ID on the birth certificate.

Because she feared that would complicate her ability to get him a U.S. passport, she decided to solicit a visitor visa for Francisco by falsely claiming that he was born in Mexico.

When you play around with fake IDs and lying on paperwork, negative consequences can sometimes ensue.

[Darth Wedgius]

Trump’s platform was fairly explicitly this, solving a “crisis at the border” “only he could”. In the minds of his supporters, anything that means fewer “Mexicans” in “their country” is working and they mostly would quite like to not know the details.

The crisis was never about refugees or migrant workers. As trump’s language about Ocasio-Cortez, Omar, et al suggests, the problem was too many brown people existing without bowing and scraping to white people. “A nation has a right to enforce its borders” is rhetoric to deceive onlookers into thinking the situation is illegality, not racism. “How dare you call them concentration camps” is rhetoric to shame the concerned into silence and soothe the conscience of the moderates: why these aren’t concentration camps, we’d never do such a thing, could never happen here.
I am under no compulsion to indulge such nonsense. If we’re not explicit about the scale of what these are and how the surrounding conditions are all primed to escalate, we have no tools to reverse and dismantle the systems driving this forward.

This is what I've heard called an "M-type argument." Instead of addressing facts, you make up motivations and then attack those motivations.

[Yukaphile]

I mean, I'm not right-wing, I'm more center left, but even I gotta agree with stuff like what Darth Wedgius says in making assumptions. Yes, Trump is a racist bastard. Yes, he's greedy and only cares about himself. But while this is deliberate, I still don't think you can compare it to Nazi Germany. My view on his motivations is he is just letting it go to ground, hoping it will mean no more immigration in the future. Plus to serve as a rallying cry to his base for 2020, who know they will be outnumbered in 2050. It's not deliberately state-sponsored punishment and murder, so much as deliberately-sponsored state incompetent hoping the system will fail. That more closely aligns with Trump's motives, I feel, as well as those who work with him.

[Draco Dracul]

I mean, I'm not right-wing, I'm more center left, but even I gotta agree with stuff like what Darth Wedgius says in making assumptions. Yes, Trump is a racist bastard. Yes, he's greedy and only cares about himself. But while this is deliberate, I still don't think you can compare it to Nazi Germany. My view on his motivations is he is just letting it go to ground, hoping it will mean no more immigration in the future. Plus to serve as a rallying cry to his base for 2020, who know they will be outnumbered in 2050. It's not deliberately state-sponsored punishment and murder, so much as deliberately-sponsored state incompetent hoping the system will fail. That more closely aligns with Trump's motives, I feel, as well as those who work with him.

You act as though those are disparate goals. The point of making the system fail is so that you can offer a more drastic solution. Because unless that's idea, the end goal is ultimately defacto open boarder as all the systems are overwhelmed and the money for boarder security and ICE runs out.

[Yukaphile]

Well, I will admit I could see Trump wanting to start a race war. The fringe extremists in his base feel the same. That said, it's still a long ways from happening.

[CmdrKing]

LittleRaven- It's not exactly the first time it's happened: https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-citizens-ice-20180427-htmlstory.html
It's just very recent and popped up in a quick search immediately. That said it's also filled with detail about the current conditions of the camps, details very consistent with assessing these as concentration camps.

Allowing that these are purely bureaucratic fuckups with no one in the chain of events acting on malicious intent (tremendously unlikely, but irrelevant to this particular point), the administration's plans to greatly speed up expedited removals are deeply worrying to understate massively-

https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/trump-administration-to-expand-its-power-to-deport-undocumented-immigrants/2019/07/22/76d09bc4-ac8e-11e9-bc5c-e73b603e7f38_story.html?utm_term=.7826068b6e2d

I mean they're already cocking it up with the court system looking things over and being required to do their homework. Letting them act autonomously? That it's being done specifically to create fuckups becomes the simpler explanation.

That's bureaucratic incompetence born from racism, not deliberate bureaucratic torture and murder born from racism. The feel-good far left purity-fueled emotionalism is what drove me into the center with views like that.

This is deeply off topic, but in a way comes back around to the point: you're alluding to things like "Cancel Culture" and other trends in leftist circles of zealously policing misdeeds. A topic of fierce debate among many circles I travel to be sure, but what exactly do you think happens to people that have been denounced in this way?

[Yukaphile]

I don't even know what "cancel culture" is past the concept "culture" has become the new go-to to slap a nickname onto something we don't like about ourselves. Rather than "the war on [insert topic here]" it's become "[insert topic here] culture."

[LittleRaven]

Allowing that these are purely bureaucratic fuckups with no one in the chain of events acting on malicious intent (tremendously unlikely, but irrelevant to this particular point), the administration's plans to greatly speed up expedited removals are deeply worrying to understate massively-

I'm not sure I agree with your first assertion - bureaucratic fuckups are a fact of life. Yes, they suck, and we should seek to minimize them, but they are not necessarily the sign of malicious actors. If you've ever tried to buy an item on the NFA restricted list, then you've probably had the pleasure of Federal bureaucrats 'misplacing' your paperwork or having your application disappear into legal limbo for months or years at a time.

Does this mean that the NRA-crazies are right? That malicious actors in Federal government are deliberately trying to strip Americans of their constitutional rights without any form of due process?

Well...maybe...but I think it's far more likely that most of the folks at the ATF are generally trying to do the best they can with what I suspect is a very antiquated system. Congress hasn't seriously updated their mission statement or given them a budget and directive to modernize in over 40 years. So they just kind of plod forward, slowly getting worse every year.

But I agree completely with your second point - Trump is most definitely NOT being helpful here. (I'm not sure why this would surprise anyone....where exactly has Trump BEEN helpful? The man has exactly one talent - spectacle. It it doesn't involve that, he pretty much cocks it up.) But this goes back to what I said about this being a problem that we shouldn't expect Presidents to solve. Obama was about as well-meaning a man as I would expect to find in the office, and even he had to resort to some pretty underhanded methods to try and get a handle on this situation. Trump has amplified all of the worst aspects of Obama's policy to a deafening level....but all those bad aspects came into being under Obama, and will almost certainly remain under any President that replaces Trump, until Congress decides to sit down and actually fix this problem.

And they really need to do that, because as much as I love my guns and get annoyed at the fact that the ATF still seems to be operating as if it's 1980...at the end of the day, the harm from that is minimal compared to human suffering generated by our broken immigration system. It has reached the point of meltdown - we now have a backlog of cases over a million deep. Yes, we need more judges, but if you have a backlog THAT big...then you're probably looking at more systemic failure. And something is clearly wrong with our admission policies, because well over 80% of applications that do go before a judge are rejected. Judges are supposed to be for the tricky cases....if 80% of people are being rejected, then cases are not being properly filtered before they reach that level. Maybe we need to update our definition of refugee? Clarify what does and doesn't qualify?

I don't know. This is a big, complicated issue. Exactly the sort of thing we have a Congress for. Leaving it in the hands of Presidents is going to end badly, no matter who that President is.