The Dumbest Thing Eddington Ever Did

[Yukaphile]

Only in the beginning. They also didn't "hunt them down" either. Sisko was trying to be as fair as possible. Granted, the original origin was a case where both sides had a point. The Maquis were trying to think long-term, and Sisko was too caught up in short-term solutions. They did shut down the weapons depot and stopped the government supplying weapons to their colonists. That said, the whole point of the zone was supposed to be about letting both sides exist together. That's kind of hard to do when you've escalated the stakes to the level where you are about to declare independence and seize all the enemy lands, and they have just as much right to be there even if they have no right to attack unprovoked, but all I see is the Maquis did the same thing. They lose the moral high ground after a while and become a very serious threat to the Federation when they easily could have left that hellhole. And my whole point was that they had an easy transport away to a new land they could resettle. It always struck me that they were still bitter over the border conflicts and just wanted to keep them going. Granted, the Feds were too caught up in these distant solutions, as we see over and over, but you hardly hold the moral high ground when you refuse to leave your homes for some reason when you know it's going to get worse, and when you know there's lots of problems in that area. And the whole basis for the Maquis was the Indians refused to leave their home for "spiritual reasons" mumbo-jumbo. That's not a dig against natives, btw, but my general eyerolling at any forms of organized religion affecting important decisions like this. And then the Traveler seems to somehow justify this by claiming they can "see" on a higher plane and there's a lot to learn from them. I hold them just as responsible for the Dominion War as the Klingons and the Cardassians.

[Admiral X]

but you hardly hold the moral high ground when you refuse to leave your homes for some reason when you know it's going to get worse, and when you know there's lots of problems in that area.

Like say some aggressive invaders insisting that your homeland actually belongs to them? Just imagine me giving you a deadpan look.

And the whole basis for the Maquis was the Indians refused to leave their home for "spiritual reasons" mumbo-jumbo.

Kind of like my tribe still considers the Black Hills to be holy to them and has continued to insist they be returned to them, refusing to accept any payment for them.

That's not a dig against natives, btw, but my general eyerolling at any forms of organized religion affecting important decisions like this.

I'm not really religious myself, but I can still respect them wanting to just keep living right where they're at, but then I'm a very live and let live kind of guy.

And then the Traveler seems to somehow justify this by claiming they can "see" on a higher plane and there's a lot to learn from them.

New age hippie crap, which still continues to this day in works like James Cameron's Avatar. But there's still a certain amount of art imitating life, probably because the writers went out of their way by having literal Natives being threatened with forced relocation by a distant government that is being represented by mostly white people. And just in case that was too subtle, Picard literally cites history in his sermon before huffing and doing what he was told like a good boy.

I hold them just as responsible for the Dominion War as the Klingons and the Cardassians.

I am familiar with the logic The Sisko tried to use when confronting Eddington, but I'm going to have to disagree with this assertion. All these people tried to do was defend what was theirs once they were denied the ability to live in peace.

[Yukaphile]

Was there EVER any proof the Cardassians didn't have legitimate claims as much as the humans to that area of space?

Whatever. I'm sure spiritual as hell, but that should take a backseat to pragmatism.

Fine. But towards the end, they flat-out refused to see the Cardassians had just as much right to settle that area of space. It's ironic you won't admit that, given you claim to be a Libertarian. And yeah, their "Final Solution" was ultimately to gas their planets, steal them, and form a new nation. Hardly makes them look any better. What did you think would be the end result? Cardassia becoming a new member of the Dominion and giving them an Alpha Quadrant foothold.

I don't know, those natives really struck me as too stubborn. They were warned there were hot border disputes in those areas, and they still settled there for "spiritual" reasons. When that Indian sneered that Picard was laughing at them, which is not his character, it was true for me.

"Defending" your home is one thing. They escalated it to an unreasonable "No Cardassians Allowed" policy, and I see nothing from them that would justify going to such an extreme attitude past Eddington's need to play hero and wanna declare independence - fancying himself Robin Hood and other "romantic" figures. Let me put it this way. Somebody breaks into your home and shoots your dog escaping with stolen property. Do you then go to his house, rape his sister, throw his wife out the window, and blow up said house? That's extreme, period.

[Admiral X]

Was there EVER any proof the Cardassians didn't have legitimate claims as much as the humans to that area of space?

Considering that in the case of the Native colony, they'd been there for like 200 years, yeah, I'd say that pretty well shows that the Cardassians were presented as just an expanding empire that was moving into territory that they wanted.

Whatever. I'm sure spiritual as hell, but that should take a backseat to pragmatism.

Then likely you would never understand why the Natives fought for as long as they could.

Fine. But towards the end, they flat-out refused to see the Cardassians had just as much right to settle that area of space.

Did they?

It's ironic you won't admit that, given you claim to be a Libertarian. And yeah, their "Final Solution" was ultimately to gas their planets, steal them, and form a new nation.

For one, there's nothing that says they weren't just taking planets back, and for another, as you recall, what they put in the atmosphere left plenty of time for evacuation.

Hardly makes them look any better. What did you think would be the end result? Cardassia becoming a new member of the Dominion and giving them an Alpha Quadrant foothold.

The thing both you and The Sisko seem to have forgotten is that it was the war with the Klingons and dissatisfaction with his own government's lack of action that drove Ducat to seek out the Dominion, not the Maquis.

I don't know, those natives really struck me as too stubborn. They were warned there were hot border disputes in those areas, and they still settled there for "spiritual" reasons. When that Indian sneered that Picard was laughing at them, which is not his character, it was true for me.

The Federation left those people alone, like they wanted, and then turned around and started attacking them when they started defending themselves against Cardassian aggression. The Federation was definitely in the wrong there.

"Defending" your home is one thing. They escalated it to an unreasonable "No Cardassians Allowed" policy, and I see nothing from them that would justify going to such an extreme attitude past Eddington's need to play hero and wanna declare independence - fancying himself Robin Hood and other "romantic" figures.

Notice that policy didn't really start until after the Cardassians started attacking them and trying to drive them out.

Let me put it this way. Somebody breaks into your home and shoots your dog escaping with stolen property. Do you then go to his house, rape his sister, throw his wife out the window, and blow up said house? That's extreme, period.

What wonderful hyperbole.

[Yukaphile]

FALSE. They arrived 20 years prior. They'd been looking for a home for 200 years. And I always got the impression they were tired of constant searching and were slaves to past abuse against the natives. Which is and always will be wrong, and we should remember, but it's like Chuck said, you should remember the past, but not let it trap you.

I mean, they were warned the area was hotly disputed, and they still knowingly chose to go there.

That's kind of the point when they wanna gas Cardassian planets and steal them from the original owners to form a new nation. Look at how quickly they had become just like the very settlers who justified their colonialism with "Manifest Destiny."

No, the explanation is pretty straightforward. They are poisoning Cardassian planets for future colonization. Eddington was the worst possible leader they could've gotten.

The Maquis put just as much pressure on the Cardassians as anything, getting pecker-slapped by two hostile enemies. Hell, it's implied that they couldn't fully deal with the Maquis because they were busy with the Klingons, and everything strongly suggests the Maquis exploited that to unleash their "Final Solution," which as I've said, was to steal enemy land and set up their own nation with it.

Were they? Were they really? I mean, it's just as valid to say they would have made things worse, because they proved it in the end, never trying to look past the bubble of their own small sphere of influence. I tend to think more like Nechayev. That sleeping with a phaser under your pillow is one thing. They flat-out wanted to start a war with the justification "we'll be safe once we put them in their place!" It's why Cal admitted to wanting revenge.

FALSE. It began right around the time Eddington took control. You are seriously reinterpreting this to fit your own headcanon.

[Admiral X]

I'd say you're more guilty of that than I am.

[Yukaphile]

And so you refuse to even address my points anymore.

[Nealithi]

FALSE. They arrived 20 years prior. They'd been looking for a home for 200 years. And I always got the impression they were tired of constant searching and were slaves to past abuse against the natives. Which is and always will be wrong, and we should remember, but it's like Chuck said, you should remember the past, but not let it trap you.

I mean, they were warned the area was hotly disputed, and they still knowingly chose to go there.

That's kind of the point when they wanna gas Cardassian planets and steal them from the original owners to form a new nation. Look at how quickly they had become just like the very settlers who justified their colonialism with "Manifest Destiny."

No, the explanation is pretty straightforward. They are poisoning Cardassian planets for future colonization. Eddington was the worst possible leader they could've gotten.

The Maquis put just as much pressure on the Cardassians as anything, getting pecker-slapped by two hostile enemies. Hell, it's implied that they couldn't fully deal with the Maquis because they were busy with the Klingons, and everything strongly suggests the Maquis exploited that to unleash their "Final Solution," which as I've said, was to steal enemy land and set up their own nation with it.

Were they? Were they really? I mean, it's just as valid to say they would have made things worse, because they proved it in the end, never trying to look past the bubble of their own small sphere of influence. I tend to think more like Nechayev. That sleeping with a phaser under your pillow is one thing. They flat-out wanted to start a war with the justification "we'll be safe once we put them in their place!" It's why Cal admitted to wanting revenge.

FALSE. It began right around the time Eddington took control. You are seriously reinterpreting this to fit your own headcanon.

Yuka, you have two threads basically on the same subject so it is hard to make a dividing line on arguments. The Maquis storyline was badly glossed over and only brought up once in a while. But when it was brought up in DS9 it was usually that the Federation were not angels. Let me paraphrase Jean Luc. How many years do you need to hold a world till it is rightfully yours. Ten years? Twenty? Two-hundred? How many years, Yuka? As to the pressure on the cardassians. Of course they struck hard while they struck while cardassia was reeling from the Klingon invasion. This was there chance to hit back and actually hold something while the cardassians are distracted. When the dust settles from the war with the Klingons the maquis can have their own borders and worlds held against invasion. And the cardassians will want peace just to not have to deal with it. You keep looking at it from the point of view that all maquis were Nazis. 'The final solution' 'Gassing worlds' 'Genocide'.
And when does your pragmatism say stop retreating? The cardassians wanted federation worlds. Okay we leave and hand them over and move into our own borders. Oh you want some of those now too? Okay? Why is it right to prevent Romulans from taking Vulcan then? The Romulans descended from Vulcans and are effectively political exiles. Since they are from the same species is this not an internal conflict and the prime directive ties the hands of the Federation?

Eddington used his knowledge to take down Starfleet ships that came after him. They came after him. The virus was a bit much. But it has the point. He left and was being hunted for it. Cassidy Yates was getting medical supplies to refugees. But because some of those refugees disagree with the Federation she was sent to a penal colony.

You want I also have a plot hole. What ever happened to the ten industrial fabricators? One had been given to the Bajorans to rebuild a whole world. Shouldn't the maquis then been pretty well off?

Eddington was a great ship commander for the Maquis. He was a lousy strategist, and way to full of himself. His whole over the top surrender to 'Javert' was narcissism beyond Shatner levels.

As to your point of 'No Cardassians'. Let's go into a dark place. The last ten times a cardassian is let in they spy on or sabotage you. Maybe the last fifty. So, nope, profiled. Yep the cardassians had a profile to not be trusted. 'You learn to watch your back around those people'.

[Yukaphile]

And the Maquis were far from the "noble defenders of their homes" you paint them as. Everything I see points to the inevitable conclusion they were getting more extreme. Ironic you quote that given it came from a man who was a hypocrite in taking a stand from forcibly relocating people when he'd done that before. And you know what? Striking back when the Klingons were harassing the Cardassians really proves how much more extreme they'd gotten, because a far more pragmatic option wouldn't have been what they actually did. It would have been holding their ground rather than devolving into an imperialistic expansionist power. And I NEVER said the Maquis were Nazis. But I hate imperialism and expansionism. And that's the opposite of "not retreating," that's poisoning a planet to prepare it for conquest. Come on. They flat-out said in the episode it would leave the newly evacuated planets ripe for human colonization. Something Eddington confirmed when he said he wanted them to declare independence, and you just know the Cardassians would have born the brunt of that, and harshly. It was literally a "No Cardassians" policy at that time, and Eddington viewed even the civilians as beneath him. They can die and he won't bat an eyelash. That's despicable. And your analogy of the Vulcans vs. Romulans falls short. My whole point was the Maquis had changed from being a group of good people with legitimate reasons to fight for their homes to an imperialistic humanocentric empire under the leadership of Eddington.

Because he was escalating the stakes to an unreasonable degree! The Cardassians have every much right to settle there as the humans! Yet he became every bit the flaws they hated in the enemy. And I'm sorry, but look how the Maquis treated Kassidy as the ultimate proof to how warped they had become. They willingly sacrifice an ally to steal industrial replicators. She is a pawn in their plans. How can you defend people like that? They'd backstab you at the first opportunity!

And that's ALL he was, a good combat officer, nothing more.

You're being racist. We met many good Cardassians.

[Yukaphile]

My big problem here isn't with the civilians on other side. It's with the paramilitary groups that try to start wars with one another. And that's what the Maquis were. Same with the Cardassian paramilitary groups. But the civilians on both sides were innocent even if they had ties to those who were. And I'm seriously against those kind of tactics that the Maquis employed. If anything, gassing their planet (and having the decency to give them a warning, unlike the Maquis) stabilized the region even if only temporarily.