Cloudflare terminating 8chan's service tonight

[LittleRaven]

You cannot claim to be for First Amendment rights and support an action like this.

I don't know about that. I'm as big a defender of the First Amendment as you're likely to find - I'm firmly on Jack Phelps side, and I'm even open to the idea that certain tech companies are moving from "providers" to "editors," so if you can sell ANYONE on this you can probably sell me...but I gotta say, I have no problem with Cloudflare terminating its relationship with 8chan. Frankly, I don't see the connection you're trying to draw.

Cloudflare is not saying 8chan can't be 8chan. It's just saying that it doesn't want to be involved with 8chan anymore. Fair enough. Nor are we looking at a Facebook or Twitter situation here, where one company is SO big that it effectively controls the venue as a whole. Cloudflare has many competitors....even you acknowledge that 8chan will have minimal problems finding a new home.

So everyone is happy. Cloudflare makes a statement, 8chan gets a new home, and First Amendment issues simply do not apply.

[Admiral X]

Cloudflare is not saying 8chan can't be 8chan. It's just saying that it doesn't want to be involved with 8chan anymore.

And they completely misrepresented 8chan to do it. For what amounts to virtue signalling.

So everyone is happy. Cloudflare makes a statement, 8chan gets a new home, and First Amendment issues simply do not apply.

It certainly does where censorship applies. Everyone tries to push this, but all they are doing is seeking an end-run around civil liberties because they think it's okay as long as the government doesn't do it. It's especially hypocritical in this case because they come right out and say that 8chan didn't break any laws, then claim they somehow violated the spirit of the law. Then turn around and claim this totally isn't a violation of the First Amendment because private company. Well, using their own rational, I say they might not be violating the letter of it, but are violating the spirit of it.

[LittleRaven]

And they completely misrepresented 8chan to do it. For what amounts to virtue signalling.

Perhaps, but that's irrelevant to the issue of Free Speech.

It certainly does where censorship applies. Everyone tries to push this, but all they are doing is seeking an end-run around civil liberties because they think it's okay as long as the government doesn't do it.

Maybe that's what everyone says, but it's not what I'm saying. Putting aside the fact that Cloudflare is not the government, 8chan is not being censored. Even you acknowledge that 8chan will find another home soon enough. If Cloudflare were a company on the level of say, Facebook or Google....so extremely dominant in the market that they had the power to effectively shut 8chan down by denying them service...then maybe there would be a censorship argument. (not a First Amendment argument, exactly, but related) But that doesn't seem to be the case here.

[CharlesPhipps]

I have a feeling you'd feel differently if the shoe was on the other foot. In fact I know differently because of the reactions from the few times Twitter and Facebook actually tried to enforce their rules in an unbiased manner.

Feeling is a matter different from legality. It's like the fact that if someone murdered my wife, I'd feel differently about being against the death penalty. That doesn't mean I'd be right. It means that I have an emotional connection to the issue.

Unless, of course, it comes to Christian businesses not wanting to make cakes or cater for gay weddings.

You realize that's literally what I'm referring to right? Basically, the sheer mammoth hypocrisy is eye-rolling.

The hypocrisy comes from the "not the letter of, but the spirit of" stance. It's an academic point since 8chan will just migrate to another server, but the point still stands. You cannot claim to be for First Amendment rights and support an action like this.

I can support the right to say anything someone wants to say and think no one is under any obligation to put it on television, which is what the equivalent is. Free speech means you're not persecuted for believing or saying something, not that you deserve a platform for it paid for by someone else.

You really don't see a difference?

[CharlesPhipps]

It's like this:

Do you support someone being able to put up a bunch of ads about anything they want in your house?

No, obviously not because it's your fucking house.

There's a difference between saying something and letting them do it in your place.

Please explain why it's otherwise.

[Admiral X]

Feeling is a matter different from legality. It's like the fact that if someone murdered my wife, I'd feel differently about being against the death penalty. That doesn't mean I'd be right. It means that I have an emotional connection to the issue.

So you'd be a hypocrite if you got censored in this fashion?

You realize that's literally what I'm referring to right? Basically, the sheer mammoth hypocrisy is eye-rolling.

Not on my part.

I can support the right to say anything someone wants to say and think no one is under any obligation to put it on television, which is what the equivalent is. Free speech means you're not persecuted for believing or saying something, not that you deserve a platform for it paid for by someone else.

Except it wasn't paid for by someone else - 8chan, like every other website, paid for their hosting.

Do you support someone being able to put up a bunch of ads about anything they want in your house?

No, obviously not because it's your fucking house.

Actually no, because I don't sell ad space on my house.

There's a difference between saying something and letting them do it in your place.

Actually it's more like going back on a contract after someone's already paid their part of it, based on a false accusation, no less.

[CharlesPhipps]

A "contract" would imply promised continuous service.

They just let them go and said they wouldn't do further service.

So you'd be a hypocrite if you got censored in this fashion?

[CmdrKing]

Really the trouble services like Cloudflare have is 8chan just will not even pretend to stay within the bounds of the law. Considering the other thing they're known for is being an accessible source for child pornography that stays up for weeks or even months, it's surprising anyone looking for mass market appeal was still willing to host them.
I guess "doing nothing to inhibit openly planning terrorist attacks on the platform" was the bridge too far.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Really the trouble services like Cloudflare have is 8chan just will not even pretend to stay within the bounds of the law. Considering the other thing they're known for is being an accessible source for child pornography that stays up for weeks or even months, it's surprising anyone looking for mass market appeal was still willing to host them.
I guess "doing nothing to inhibit openly planning terrorist attacks on the platform" was the bridge too far.

Yeah I saw Dan Olson's tweets on the subject. I'm not gonna say he's wrong, but I still think this address by Cloudflare was pretty sober.

Oh and there is the whole thing he said about them conferring with 8chan about him and that does sound weird and f'ed up.

[CharlesPhipps]

Looks like 8chan, The Daily Stormer and Gab have all been shut down for now because Epik, the company that provided hosting and DDoS protection for the later two and the former was moving to, rented out servers from another company, Voxility, and they pulled the plug.

https://twitter.com/kevinroose/status/1158407888290713600?s=19