Traditional Comic books are dying

[Yukaphile]

Could've still kept Thor around. Assuming they went with the Totally Awesome Hulk route and shoved old Thor to the side. Anyway, comics will always be here. DC and Marvel are not going to fail.

[Karha of Honor]

Hmmm... I wonder if the politics these comics have been pushing lately have anything to do with their drop off in popularity...

Marvel and DC had such costumer loyalty that it was inevitable that they will start doing idiotic things...

As group comic book fans are the biggest bitches in the history of fiction pimping.

Except in this case, I think the problem is that they tried to appeal to a different audience, alienating their existing one in the process. And the joke was on them, because that new audience they were trying to appeal to doesn't buy comic books.

Yeah but comcis is small enough that if it's not domianted by the Big 2 the foolishness of that would had been clear way sooner.

[GreyICE]

Comic books suffer from numerous problems. I'll list a few.

First, the format is garbage. The entire serial thing made sense when people would buy them in convenience store. Now prices have risen (not just due to inflation), interest has waned, and they are just not profitable to publish. Comics can cost $0.75-$1 to print on a book that costs $3. Now factor in that the retailer and distributor are going to take ~60% of the cover price, and you're looking at maybe $0.50 per book best case scenario for the publisher. That has to pay all advertising, artists, etc. I've seen estimates as low as $0.30 per issue for indie comics.

So they HAVE to make it up in volume. That's why mainstream publishing became all about big events, crossovers, etc. Unfortunately, this alienates new readers. It drives volumes, but it also creates huge barriers to entry for newer readers. Which is a long-term problem, and having your comics cancelled is a short-term problem that obviously destroys the long-term. Now your fanbase is basically fated to grow only slowly and erratically in a best case scenario. Now on $4 it's slightly better, but this is getting really fucking expensive. Buying three comics is the same as your Netflix subscription, and lets face it, it's not the same amount of content.

This has lead to periodic attempts to attract new readers, because anyone with an ounce of foresight can see that the strategy of "hope our fans become immortal and never stop buying our comics" has a few flaws. Unfortunately, this leads to the new problem - DC and Marvel are shit companies who reassign new writers, so even when series attract new fans, they'll reassign the writers who made them work, or pull the suddenly popular new series into boosting other flagging series. For instance, recently the new Ms. Marvel became a hit. It was snappy writing, a relatable character, and kind of fun. They immediately put a new writer on her, and dragged her into the inhumans plotline, which ruined all the fun of the comic, and made it shit like everything else. You do this enough times, and all the potential new readers feel burned by the horrible business practices (much like potential viewers of "SyFy" channel programming) so they don't take it on.

Disney wants to freezer the entire comic book line, and DC looks to be following suit. Comics are not money makers. All they want to do is avoid controversy, so the comic book series doesn't inspire any anger that would spill over into their actual profitable enterprises. More people complained online about the "female Thor" storyline than actually read it, probably by a factor of 20. It was good writing that was respectful to the characters involved. But it got people enraged and that's bad for movie ticket and merchandise sales. Toys and tie-ins have kept comics afloat since forever, so making people who buy Thor figures to leave them in a plastic case mad is a losing proposition. Similarly we haven't seen female Loki for quite sometime, because the last thing Disney wants is "comics made Loki transgender" trending on Twitter. Even though it's literally something that's been part of Loki's character since the Norse, Loki is going to avoid gender swapping. Because lets face it, losing 1% ticket sales on Thor 4 would be more than every Thor or Loki related comic would earn for the next decade.

Comics are now a loss leader for comic book movies to the big 2. They are not going to create any new ones they can't get into movies, and they're not going to push anything they don't see as a viable movie strategy, because you don't overpush a loss leader.

Finally, this is catastrophic for storytelling. This site calls season 7 of TNG "the season they ran out of ideas". That's great. Bruce Banner has been smashing things for 60 years. Do you think there's a new and innovative storyline you can tell about Bruce, the geriatric rage monster? But if you stray too far, the fans (who hate change more than they hate anything else in the universe) will descend like a plague of locusts over the land, to lay wastes to any creative endeavors that might not fit their incredibly narrow view of what the comic "should be".

The result is storytelling so brain dead that it's really hard to appreciate how fucking stupid the average comic storyline is.

TLDR: Comics are dead, indies should abandon the format, move to trade paperback, and work together to avoid dealing with the bullshit of the big 2 at all.

There's more issues - there's a lot to do with writers, the inbred nature of an editorial panel that amounts to lunatics running the asylum, and the effects of the comic book code, but y'know, this is the basics.

[Mecha82]

Could've still kept Thor around. Assuming they went with the Totally Awesome Hulk route and shoved old Thor to the side. Anyway, comics will always be here. DC and Marvel are not going to fail.

Thor was still around but he didn't have Mjölnir. Jane Foster had. He lost Mjölnir because of something that Nick Fury had told him.

[AuRon]

I'm not a diehard comic book fan at all, but I do sometimes read them. So maybe I can give a different perspective on this. I've read various series over the years, but have had trouble with sticking with any of them for long, for a few reasons.

First, there is the frequent "events". Some big universe spanning story line that interferes with various series, and has a lot of cross overs. I'm sure that was pretty neat and innovative when they did Crises on Infinite Earths so many years ago, but at this point they've become so common that it doesn't feel special anymore. Its just annoying. Often times if I see that a comic issue is part of an event (which happens fairly often) I'll just not even bother reading it.

Another thing is the way continuity is handled. Modern comics tend to be heavily serialized, with constant ongoing storylines. Which is fine. Except that modern comics also tend to constantly retcon things, and undo any big changes that are made after just a few years (if even that). And the fact that nobody stays dead in comics (no one that matters anyway). It feels like the people behind these comics want to have their cake and eat it too. They want ongoing storylines with big events and shocking twists, but they also want nothing to really change in the long run and just maintain the status quo. So, what is the point of the story arcs and events if none of it really matters in the long run, and everything will just "go back to normal" sooner or later? Why should I get invested?

If nothing that happens really matters, then they might as well just go back to the more episodic format of yesteryear. At least that way the books would be more accessible, and you would get a complete story in one issue.

And then of course there is the fact that each comic book costs 4 or 5 dollars an issue. For that amount of money I could potentially buy a 400 page novel instead of a 20 page comic. It often doesn't seem worth the money. Obviously 4 or 5 dollars isn't that much, but it adds up over time if you want to stick with the series, or read multiple series at once.

So, that's just my perspective on why I am not a regular comic book reader. Although, I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. Obviously this applies mainly to DC and Marvel.

[CmdrKing]

Finally, this is catastrophic for storytelling. This site calls season 7 of TNG "the season they ran out of ideas". That's great. Bruce Banner has been smashing things for 60 years. Do you think there's a new and innovative storyline you can tell about Bruce, the geriatric rage monster? But if you stray too far, the fans (who hate change more than they hate anything else in the universe) will descend like a plague of locusts over the land, to lay wastes to any creative endeavors that might not fit their incredibly narrow view of what the comic "should be".

The result is storytelling so brain dead that it's really hard to appreciate how fucking stupid the average comic storyline is.

Most of GreyICE's post is pretty solid, but I wanted to expand on this bit because there's a bit of comic history that's stuck in my brain.

I feel like things were all over for comics back in the Clone Saga.

The original planned ending, where Peter retires to start a family while Ben becomes the new full-time Spider-Man is exactly the sort of thing the stories needed: an ability for characters to gracefully set down their masks and for new characters to step into their roles. And hey, they aren't even dead! If you got an up and coming writer 5 or 10 years on who's got a KILLER "Peter comes out of retirement" pitch? He's there! Big world-shaking event going down in New York? Ben knows a guy that might be able to pitch in. Doesn't even have to be much, a quick three page cameo just to give the long-time readers a little moment.

And the Clone Saga did end up becoming a new model for the industry. Just the one that's killing them now. Events strung out for months or even years they can't sustain. Storylines spread out over 4-5 books. Setting up fresh new plots just to derail them out of pearl-clutching fear of upsetting the purists.

That said not all of the problems are related to this. The distribution model is shit (and monopolized through a third-party publisher basically). Renewing books is based on sales of floppies despite sales of trades being much stronger and more indicative of what's popular. Ike Perlmutter is a skinflint who's active sabotage of Marvel got so bad Disney actually stepped in to force him off the Film side. But the underlying trends have been there for decades at this point.

[AuRon]

When I posted earlier, I hadn't read the entire thread before posting, so I guess some of the stuff I said was already mentioned. But I guess these are at least things people can agree on.

[Karha of Honor]

Comic books suffer from numerous problems. I'll list a few.

First, the format is garbage. The entire serial thing made sense when people would buy them in convenience store. Now prices have risen (not just due to inflation), interest has waned, and they are just not profitable to publish. Comics can cost $0.75-$1 to print on a book that costs $3. Now factor in that the retailer and distributor are going to take ~60% of the cover price, and you're looking at maybe $0.50 per book best case scenario for the publisher. That has to pay all advertising, artists, etc. I've seen estimates as low as $0.30 per issue for indie comics.

So they HAVE to make it up in volume. That's why mainstream publishing became all about big events, crossovers, etc. Unfortunately, this alienates new readers. It drives volumes, but it also creates huge barriers to entry for newer readers. Which is a long-term problem, and having your comics cancelled is a short-term problem that obviously destroys the long-term. Now your fanbase is basically fated to grow only slowly and erratically in a best case scenario. Now on $4 it's slightly better, but this is getting really fucking expensive. Buying three comics is the same as your Netflix subscription, and lets face it, it's not the same amount of content.

This has lead to periodic attempts to attract new readers, because anyone with an ounce of foresight can see that the strategy of "hope our fans become immortal and never stop buying our comics" has a few flaws. Unfortunately, this leads to the new problem - DC and Marvel are shit companies who reassign new writers, so even when series attract new fans, they'll reassign the writers who made them work, or pull the suddenly popular new series into boosting other flagging series. For instance, recently the new Ms. Marvel became a hit. It was snappy writing, a relatable character, and kind of fun. They immediately put a new writer on her, and dragged her into the inhumans plotline, which ruined all the fun of the comic, and made it shit like everything else. You do this enough times, and all the potential new readers feel burned by the horrible business practices (much like potential viewers of "SyFy" channel programming) so they don't take it on.

Disney wants to freezer the entire comic book line, and DC looks to be following suit. Comics are not money makers. All they want to do is avoid controversy, so the comic book series doesn't inspire any anger that would spill over into their actual profitable enterprises. More people complained online about the "female Thor" storyline than actually read it, probably by a factor of 20. It was good writing that was respectful to the characters involved. But it got people enraged and that's bad for movie ticket and merchandise sales. Toys and tie-ins have kept comics afloat since forever, so making people who buy Thor figures to leave them in a plastic case mad is a losing proposition. Similarly we haven't seen female Loki for quite sometime, because the last thing Disney wants is "comics made Loki transgender" trending on Twitter. Even though it's literally something that's been part of Loki's character since the Norse, Loki is going to avoid gender swapping. Because lets face it, losing 1% ticket sales on Thor 4 would be more than every Thor or Loki related comic would earn for the next decade.

Comics are now a loss leader for comic book movies to the big 2. They are not going to create any new ones they can't get into movies, and they're not going to push anything they don't see as a viable movie strategy, because you don't overpush a loss leader.

Finally, this is catastrophic for storytelling. This site calls season 7 of TNG "the season they ran out of ideas". That's great. Bruce Banner has been smashing things for 60 years. Do you think there's a new and innovative storyline you can tell about Bruce, the geriatric rage monster? But if you stray too far, the fans (who hate change more than they hate anything else in the universe) will descend like a plague of locusts over the land, to lay wastes to any creative endeavors that might not fit their incredibly narrow view of what the comic "should be".

The result is storytelling so brain dead that it's really hard to appreciate how fucking stupid the average comic storyline is.

TLDR: Comics are dead, indies should abandon the format, move to trade paperback, and work together to avoid dealing with the bullshit of the big 2 at all.

There's more issues - there's a lot to do with writers, the inbred nature of an editorial panel that amounts to lunatics running the asylum, and the effects of the comic book code, but y'know, this is the basics.

It was funny to see how at the time it was said that female Thor won't be a big deal and it will go back to normal with no comnsequences and now see female Thor introduced at Comic Con...

[Mecha82]

Not many things in comic books really last and Jane Foster having Mjölnir was one of those things and clearly it was never even meant to last. And yet all immature idiots were complaining about it like it would had been end of the world.

Sadly one of those things that has lasted is Peter Parker's deal with Mephisto not being undone. Then again I started reading Marvel comic books during 90's when Clone Saga was going on so to me Peter being married to Mary Jane was what I got used to.

[clearspira]

I have to say that of all things I believe the price to be the biggest obstacle. I think a lot of those big numbers from the past were back when comics were an impulse buy; you had a bob in your pocket and you thought ''yeah, why the hell not?'' and because the other issues were so cheap, maybe you bought two, maybe you came back next month and continued etc. But now? You would be paying four dollars for a hundred pages of content when that money can go towards Netflix or Prime for a lot more content.

I also have a large suspicion that this also ties in with the fact that traditional comics fans are mostly ageing straight white men. I do NOT say that to insult ageing straight white men, I am merely making a point that if your fanbase is getting older and is of a single demographic, you A) are about to lose your fanbase due to death and other priorities for that money AKA children and B) you have a smaller market than you would otherwise like. That was actually the argument for the Ferengi giving women equal rights, not because they wanted to give them equal rights, but because you've just potentially increased the entire market for your product by 50%.

I think that is why Marvel keep trying to attract women, gays and minorities because they can see that. Unfortunately, its not working, because these demos did not want to read them beforehand and they still don't. Meanwhile a lot of the traditional demo is starting to feel alienated as less and less of the content interests them because it just is not aimed at them any more. To put it another way, Marvel put their hands to their face to defend themselves from a broken nose, only to miss the kick to the balls that came immediately after.

I feel that the politics may be a problem for a number of people, but I have my doubts that all that many people have stopped buying comics JUST because of the politics. Its just one of many reasons.