Traditional Comic books are dying

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

So 310 multiplied by 2 is 620. Just shy of 995 million.

[GreyICE]

I think that is why Marvel keep trying to attract women, gays and minorities because they can see that. Unfortunately, its not working, because these demos did not want to read them beforehand and they still don't. Meanwhile a lot of the traditional demo is starting to feel alienated as less and less of the content interests them because it just is not aimed at them any more. To put it another way, Marvel put their hands to their face to defend themselves from a broken nose, only to miss the kick to the balls that came immediately after.

I feel that the politics may be a problem for a number of people, but I have my doubts that all that many people have stopped buying comics JUST because of the politics. Its just one of many reasons.

I'm not going to sugar coat it, Marvel in particular has a LOT of ill-will built up with the gay community. They held their editorial policy of "no gay characters" up until the 90s, and even when it died their new policy was "gay character means Adults Only rating". This lead to the painful situation where The Rawhide Kid - a campy and immature comic featuring little violence, a gunslinger who occasionally made kissing motions in the general direction of other guys and wore outfits less revealing than Namor's - was rated Adults Only alongside Punisher Max, where breasts were frequently on display and people were being slaughtered wholesale in the most gruesome ways they could come up with (including one person having his nuts cut off and put in a cup).

Even when they broke that with a gay character in 1992, they cancelled his series immediately after the announcement, and he was rarely seen again. He did finally get married in 2012, but even then he failed to kiss his partner (and he was also immediately shuttled off the team). It's kind of telling Marvel's first gay character wasn't allowed to kiss another guy on-panel even at his own wedding.

Marvel's Cinematic history feels about the same, as of their 23 films, they've managed to have managed to score for leads one woman, one black man, zero Asian people, and 21 movies lead by white dudes, all of whom have been straight and cisgender. As one wit put it on seeing Infinity Wars, "what strikes me most about seeing all of Marvel's history onscreen at once is what a huge damn sausage party it is."

In light of that, most people are smart enough to see the pandering for exactly what it is - queerbaiting and tokenism.

[ProfessorDetective]

I think that is why Marvel keep trying to attract women, gays and minorities because they can see that. Unfortunately, its not working, because these demos did not want to read them beforehand and they still don't. Meanwhile a lot of the traditional demo is starting to feel alienated as less and less of the content interests them because it just is not aimed at them any more. To put it another way, Marvel put their hands to their face to defend themselves from a broken nose, only to miss the kick to the balls that came immediately after.

I feel that the politics may be a problem for a number of people, but I have my doubts that all that many people have stopped buying comics JUST because of the politics. Its just one of many reasons.

I'm not going to sugar coat it, Marvel in particular has a LOT of ill-will built up with the gay community. They held their editorial policy of "no gay characters" up until the 90s, and even when it died their new policy was "gay character means Adults Only rating". This lead to the painful situation where The Rawhide Kid - a campy and immature comic featuring little violence, a gunslinger who occasionally made kissing motions in the general direction of other guys and wore outfits less revealing than Namor's - was rated Adults Only alongside Punisher Max, where breasts were frequently on display and people were being slaughtered wholesale in the most gruesome ways they could come up with (including one person having his nuts cut off and put in a cup).

Even when they broke that with a gay character in 1992, they cancelled his series immediately after the announcement, and he was rarely seen again. He did finally get married in 2012, but even then he failed to kiss his partner (and he was also immediately shuttled off the team). It's kind of telling Marvel's first gay character wasn't allowed to kiss another guy on-panel even at his own wedding.

Marvel's Cinematic history feels about the same, as of their 23 films, they've managed to have managed to score for leads one woman, one black man, zero Asian people, and 21 movies lead by white dudes, all of whom have been straight and cisgender. As one wit put it on seeing Infinity Wars, "what strikes me most about seeing all of Marvel's history onscreen at once is what a huge damn sausage party it is."

In light of that, most people are smart enough to see the pandering for exactly what it is - queerbaiting and tokenism.

Going by the announcements at Comic-Con, they ARE trying to rectify this a touch. Shang-Chi, Blade, Valkyrie. It shouldn't have taken this damn long, but still.

But, yeah. On the whole, DC has been better with LGBT rep, at least in the comics. The big ones being that Wonder Woman is definitely either bi or pan, fan-favorite villains Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy are bi and pretty much together, Batwoman Kate Kane is a lesbian, Green Lantern Alan Scott is gay. All major characters with deep connections to The Verse. It's definitely a better showing than Marvel's.

[clearspira]

I think that is why Marvel keep trying to attract women, gays and minorities because they can see that. Unfortunately, its not working, because these demos did not want to read them beforehand and they still don't. Meanwhile a lot of the traditional demo is starting to feel alienated as less and less of the content interests them because it just is not aimed at them any more. To put it another way, Marvel put their hands to their face to defend themselves from a broken nose, only to miss the kick to the balls that came immediately after.

I feel that the politics may be a problem for a number of people, but I have my doubts that all that many people have stopped buying comics JUST because of the politics. Its just one of many reasons.

I'm not going to sugar coat it, Marvel in particular has a LOT of ill-will built up with the gay community. They held their editorial policy of "no gay characters" up until the 90s, and even when it died their new policy was "gay character means Adults Only rating". This lead to the painful situation where The Rawhide Kid - a campy and immature comic featuring little violence, a gunslinger who occasionally made kissing motions in the general direction of other guys and wore outfits less revealing than Namor's - was rated Adults Only alongside Punisher Max, where breasts were frequently on display and people were being slaughtered wholesale in the most gruesome ways they could come up with (including one person having his nuts cut off and put in a cup).

Even when they broke that with a gay character in 1992, they cancelled his series immediately after the announcement, and he was rarely seen again. He did finally get married in 2012, but even then he failed to kiss his partner (and he was also immediately shuttled off the team). It's kind of telling Marvel's first gay character wasn't allowed to kiss another guy on-panel even at his own wedding.

Marvel's Cinematic history feels about the same, as of their 23 films, they've managed to have managed to score for leads one woman, one black man, zero Asian people, and 21 movies lead by white dudes, all of whom have been straight and cisgender. As one wit put it on seeing Infinity Wars, "what strikes me most about seeing all of Marvel's history onscreen at once is what a huge damn sausage party it is."

In light of that, most people are smart enough to see the pandering for exactly what it is - queerbaiting and tokenism.

Going by the announcements at Comic-Con, they ARE trying to rectify this a touch. Shang-Chi, Blade, Valkyrie. It shouldn't have taken this damn long, but still.

But, yeah. On the whole, DC has been better with LGBT rep, at least in the comics. The big ones being that Wonder Woman is definitely either bi or pan, fan-favorite villains Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy are bi and pretty much together, Batwoman Kate Kane is a lesbian, Green Lantern Alan Scott is gay. All major characters with deep connections to The Verse. It's definitely a better showing than Marvel's.

The original Green Lantern is gay? That one definitely sounds like pandering because I have a few Golden and Silver Age collections on my Kindle and he definitely did not come off that way. Sounds to me like they thought ''we want a gay character but, y'know, we don't want it to be Hal, Kyle or John so...''

I must say I had a bit of a titter at Harley and Poison Ivy being bi. Not at the idea itself, just that they're both absolutely insane, easily approaching Joker level. Its a bit like saying Attendant Kira or any of the Mirror Discovery crew are good representations of the LGBT community.

I can definitely see GreyICE's point i'm not going to lie.

[ProfessorDetective]

I think that is why Marvel keep trying to attract women, gays and minorities because they can see that. Unfortunately, its not working, because these demos did not want to read them beforehand and they still don't. Meanwhile a lot of the traditional demo is starting to feel alienated as less and less of the content interests them because it just is not aimed at them any more. To put it another way, Marvel put their hands to their face to defend themselves from a broken nose, only to miss the kick to the balls that came immediately after.

I feel that the politics may be a problem for a number of people, but I have my doubts that all that many people have stopped buying comics JUST because of the politics. Its just one of many reasons.

I'm not going to sugar coat it, Marvel in particular has a LOT of ill-will built up with the gay community. They held their editorial policy of "no gay characters" up until the 90s, and even when it died their new policy was "gay character means Adults Only rating". This lead to the painful situation where The Rawhide Kid - a campy and immature comic featuring little violence, a gunslinger who occasionally made kissing motions in the general direction of other guys and wore outfits less revealing than Namor's - was rated Adults Only alongside Punisher Max, where breasts were frequently on display and people were being slaughtered wholesale in the most gruesome ways they could come up with (including one person having his nuts cut off and put in a cup).

Even when they broke that with a gay character in 1992, they cancelled his series immediately after the announcement, and he was rarely seen again. He did finally get married in 2012, but even then he failed to kiss his partner (and he was also immediately shuttled off the team). It's kind of telling Marvel's first gay character wasn't allowed to kiss another guy on-panel even at his own wedding.

Marvel's Cinematic history feels about the same, as of their 23 films, they've managed to have managed to score for leads one woman, one black man, zero Asian people, and 21 movies lead by white dudes, all of whom have been straight and cisgender. As one wit put it on seeing Infinity Wars, "what strikes me most about seeing all of Marvel's history onscreen at once is what a huge damn sausage party it is."

In light of that, most people are smart enough to see the pandering for exactly what it is - queerbaiting and tokenism.

Going by the announcements at Comic-Con, they ARE trying to rectify this a touch. Shang-Chi, Blade, Valkyrie. It shouldn't have taken this damn long, but still.

But, yeah. On the whole, DC has been better with LGBT rep, at least in the comics. The big ones being that Wonder Woman is definitely either bi or pan, fan-favorite villains Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy are bi and pretty much together, Batwoman Kate Kane is a lesbian, Green Lantern Alan Scott is gay. All major characters with deep connections to The Verse. It's definitely a better showing than Marvel's.

The original Green Lantern is gay? That one definitely sounds like pandering because I have a few Golden and Silver Age collections on my Kindle and he definitely did not come off that way. Sounds to me like they thought ''we want a gay character but, y'know, we don't want it to be Hal, Kyle or John so...''

I must say I had a bit of a titter at Harley and Poison Ivy being bi. Not at the idea itself, just that they're both absolutely insane, easily approaching Joker level. Its a bit like saying Attendant Kira or any of the Mirror Discovery crew are good representations of the LGBT community.

I can definitely see GreyICE's point i'm not going to lie.

You didn't know about Alan Scott? They did that a few years back, pre-Rebirth. There was a lot of noise about it.

[ProfessorDetective]

I think that is why Marvel keep trying to attract women, gays and minorities because they can see that. Unfortunately, its not working, because these demos did not want to read them beforehand and they still don't. Meanwhile a lot of the traditional demo is starting to feel alienated as less and less of the content interests them because it just is not aimed at them any more. To put it another way, Marvel put their hands to their face to defend themselves from a broken nose, only to miss the kick to the balls that came immediately after.

I feel that the politics may be a problem for a number of people, but I have my doubts that all that many people have stopped buying comics JUST because of the politics. Its just one of many reasons.

I'm not going to sugar coat it, Marvel in particular has a LOT of ill-will built up with the gay community. They held their editorial policy of "no gay characters" up until the 90s, and even when it died their new policy was "gay character means Adults Only rating". This lead to the painful situation where The Rawhide Kid - a campy and immature comic featuring little violence, a gunslinger who occasionally made kissing motions in the general direction of other guys and wore outfits less revealing than Namor's - was rated Adults Only alongside Punisher Max, where breasts were frequently on display and people were being slaughtered wholesale in the most gruesome ways they could come up with (including one person having his nuts cut off and put in a cup).

Even when they broke that with a gay character in 1992, they cancelled his series immediately after the announcement, and he was rarely seen again. He did finally get married in 2012, but even then he failed to kiss his partner (and he was also immediately shuttled off the team). It's kind of telling Marvel's first gay character wasn't allowed to kiss another guy on-panel even at his own wedding.

Marvel's Cinematic history feels about the same, as of their 23 films, they've managed to have managed to score for leads one woman, one black man, zero Asian people, and 21 movies lead by white dudes, all of whom have been straight and cisgender. As one wit put it on seeing Infinity Wars, "what strikes me most about seeing all of Marvel's history onscreen at once is what a huge damn sausage party it is."

In light of that, most people are smart enough to see the pandering for exactly what it is - queerbaiting and tokenism.

Going by the announcements at Comic-Con, they ARE trying to rectify this a touch. Shang-Chi, Blade, Valkyrie. It shouldn't have taken this damn long, but still.

But, yeah. On the whole, DC has been better with LGBT rep, at least in the comics. The big ones being that Wonder Woman is definitely either bi or pan, fan-favorite villains Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy are bi and pretty much together, Batwoman Kate Kane is a lesbian, Green Lantern Alan Scott is gay. All major characters with deep connections to The Verse. It's definitely a better showing than Marvel's.

The original Green Lantern is gay? That one definitely sounds like pandering because I have a few Golden and Silver Age collections on my Kindle and he definitely did not come off that way. Sounds to me like they thought ''we want a gay character but, y'know, we don't want it to be Hal, Kyle or John so...''

I must say I had a bit of a titter at Harley and Poison Ivy being bi. Not at the idea itself, just that they're both absolutely insane, easily approaching Joker level. Its a bit like saying Attendant Kira or any of the Mirror Discovery crew are good representations of the LGBT community.

I can definitely see GreyICE's point i'm not going to lie.

You didn't know about Alan Scott? They did that a few years back, pre-Rebirth. There was a lot of noise about it.

And fair point of Harley and Ivy. Though, you're the first one I've seen take that angle on it. Comes with the popularity, I guess.

[Mecha82]

I think that is why Marvel keep trying to attract women, gays and minorities because they can see that. Unfortunately, its not working, because these demos did not want to read them beforehand and they still don't. Meanwhile a lot of the traditional demo is starting to feel alienated as less and less of the content interests them because it just is not aimed at them any more. To put it another way, Marvel put their hands to their face to defend themselves from a broken nose, only to miss the kick to the balls that came immediately after.

I feel that the politics may be a problem for a number of people, but I have my doubts that all that many people have stopped buying comics JUST because of the politics. Its just one of many reasons.

I'm not going to sugar coat it, Marvel in particular has a LOT of ill-will built up with the gay community. They held their editorial policy of "no gay characters" up until the 90s, and even when it died their new policy was "gay character means Adults Only rating". This lead to the painful situation where The Rawhide Kid - a campy and immature comic featuring little violence, a gunslinger who occasionally made kissing motions in the general direction of other guys and wore outfits less revealing than Namor's - was rated Adults Only alongside Punisher Max, where breasts were frequently on display and people were being slaughtered wholesale in the most gruesome ways they could come up with (including one person having his nuts cut off and put in a cup).

Even when they broke that with a gay character in 1992, they cancelled his series immediately after the announcement, and he was rarely seen again. He did finally get married in 2012, but even then he failed to kiss his partner (and he was also immediately shuttled off the team). It's kind of telling Marvel's first gay character wasn't allowed to kiss another guy on-panel even at his own wedding.

Marvel's Cinematic history feels about the same, as of their 23 films, they've managed to have managed to score for leads one woman, one black man, zero Asian people, and 21 movies lead by white dudes, all of whom have been straight and cisgender. As one wit put it on seeing Infinity Wars, "what strikes me most about seeing all of Marvel's history onscreen at once is what a huge damn sausage party it is."

In light of that, most people are smart enough to see the pandering for exactly what it is - queerbaiting and tokenism.

Going by the announcements at Comic-Con, they ARE trying to rectify this a touch. Shang-Chi, Blade, Valkyrie. It shouldn't have taken this damn long, but still.

But, yeah. On the whole, DC has been better with LGBT rep, at least in the comics. The big ones being that Wonder Woman is definitely either bi or pan, fan-favorite villains Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy are bi and pretty much together, Batwoman Kate Kane is a lesbian, Green Lantern Alan Scott is gay. All major characters with deep connections to The Verse. It's definitely a better showing than Marvel's.

The original Green Lantern is gay? That one definitely sounds like pandering because I have a few Golden and Silver Age collections on my Kindle and he definitely did not come off that way. Sounds to me like they thought ''we want a gay character but, y'know, we don't want it to be Hal, Kyle or John so...''

I must say I had a bit of a titter at Harley and Poison Ivy being bi. Not at the idea itself, just that they're both absolutely insane, easily approaching Joker level. Its a bit like saying Attendant Kira or any of the Mirror Discovery crew are good representations of the LGBT community.

I can definitely see GreyICE's point i'm not going to lie.

You didn't know about Alan Scott? They did that a few years back, pre-Rebirth. There was a lot of noise about it.

There is this little thing that they ignored in they outrage about Alan Scott being gay in pre-Rebirth that being that Alan Scott wasn't original Alan Scott from Golden Age but re-imaged version from universe were Earth was under attack by Darkseid and his forces and was eventually destroyed.

[Madner Kami]

And fair point of Harley and Ivy. Though, you're the first one I've seen take that angle on it. Comes with the popularity, I guess.

No, that is not a fair point. It would be a fair point if the only such coupling would be Harley and Pamela, but that is clearly not the case. If you want equal representation, then even the villains must be allowed to be LGBTQwhateverelse.

[ProfessorDetective]

And fair point of Harley and Ivy. Though, you're the first one I've seen take that angle on it. Comes with the popularity, I guess.

No, that is not a fair point. It would be a fair point if the only such coupling would be Harley and Pamela, but that is clearly not the case. If you want equal representation, then even the villains must be allowed to be LGBTQwhateverelse.

Also fair.

[CmdrKing]

The interesting thing about Harle and Pam is the very not-subtle indication that being together makes them substantially better people. Still amoral and selfish with occasional bouts of villainy, but not "someone who will start a'killin' as soon as they're not in Arkham" supervillains.
I mean the foundation for both characters involves a toxic relation to men: Poison Ivy's biggest crimes usually start with her manipulating and controlling men to further her ends, and before the Joker Harle was an everyday cheat at her worst, not a time bomb of crazy waiting to happen.

I certainly dispute the assertion there hasn't been a gay lead in the Marvel movies, but sure, they could actually come out and say it instead of reading like the "censored for Chinese markets" version of the movie.
The comics... they've done approximately *one* full blown gay character where it was someone with name value that people knew and cared about (Bobby Drake/Iceman), and I just had to check to make sure they hadn't retconned or killed him since then. I mean, Loki exists, but since their last solo comic ended they've stuck consistently to masculine presentation which kills the fun of actually playing up Loki's mythological queerness. There's a goodly number of supporting characters in some quirkier books (Koi Boi is trans for instance) but they're also the sort of characters that'll just... stop existing once those books end their run.