Superman V.S The Elite

[iwfan53]

but again, no one ever complained when the Christopher Reeves version of Superman killed Zod even though that Zod was no longer an immediate threat.

and I haven't seen all the MCU movies but even if what you say about Captain America is true, there are still examples in the other movies in that series. Iron Man and Pepper killed Iron Monger, the Guardians of the Galaxy killed Ronan and Ego and this is one of the ones I haven't seen yet still but didn't they kill all the henchmen aliens in the first Avengers?

and back to DC, there is the Wonder Woman animated movie from ten years back, no one ever complained about her killing there, and not just Ares but random members of his cult too.

I didn't get around to this part in my first post till I edited it so let me just hit the high points.

The audience sees Zod take a fall of unkown height to land in an unkown location. Can you find me a clip from the movie (or any of the ones that follow) of anyone ever directly talking about Zod being dead? Because if there is no such evidence, then the most logical thing to assume is that he isn't, and instead he simply fell into something that would break his fall but not be fatal and Superman flew him to prison of screen.

For Iron Man and Pepper killing Iron Monger...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZt_Ab9StwU

Iron Monger is winning this fight and about to kill Tony. Those two know that the button will shut down his suit, but have no way of knowing that he'll fall forwards instead of backwards, or that even that falling forwards would end up being fatal to him, since I'm sure there are a dozen different ways that the Iron Monger suit could have ended up cushioning his fall and keeping him alive if he hadn't fallen directly into the Arc Reactor. There's no reason to assume that either Tony or Pepper have the sort of surefire knowledge that pushing the button will kill Iron Monger as opposed to how much knowledge Superman has that snapping Zod's neck will kill him.

From Guardians of the Galaxy, its worth pointing out that the audience isn't going to hold the Guardians whose leader describes himself as "An a-hole, but not 100% a dick" to the same moral standards as Superman. Guardians of the Galaxy is about a bunch of people learning to slowly but surely become barely functional members of society ("That doesn't follow, I want it more!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fHPaYglCUw ) so we are not surprised when they kill their villains and see nothing out of character or objectionable when they do it.

As for the first Avengers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0xhkLQZ9_0

All the alien soldiers stop moving when their mothership is destroyed. Given movie logic there is no reason to assume that said aliens aren't actually just more organic looking robots since they behave the exact same way the battle droids do in Episode 1 when their own mothership is shot down, much like how Manchester Black in this Superman movie points out that the huge cockroach things Superman was fighting don't have brains, thus he doesn't need to worry about holding back...



In short it all boils down to three questions.

1: Do I hold this character up to be a role model.

2: Do I believe they knowingly killed someone of human level intelligence.

3: Do I believe that they had other options?

If any of the above questions are answered "No" then odds are most of the audience are willing to go along with it.

The Superman killing in Superman 2 gets a "No" to the second question from me because I don't believe he actually killed Zod.

But the Superman killing of Zod in man of Steel is three "yes"s and that is why so many people have a problem with it.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

but again, no one ever complained when the Christopher Reeves version of Superman killed Zod even though that Zod was no longer an immediate threat.

and I haven't seen all the MCU movies but even if what you say about Captain America is true, there are still examples in the other movies in that series. Iron Man and Pepper killed Iron Monger, the Guardians of the Galaxy killed Ronan and Ego and this is one of the ones I haven't seen yet still but didn't they kill all the henchmen aliens in the first Avengers?

and back to DC, there is the Wonder Woman animated movie from ten years back, no one ever complained about her killing there, and not just Ares but random members of his cult too.

I didn't get around to this part in my first post till I edited it so let me just hit the high points.

The audience sees Zod take a fall of unkown height to land in an unkown location. Can you find me a clip from the movie (or any of the ones that follow) of anyone ever directly talking about Zod being dead? Because if there is no such evidence, then the most logical thing to assume is that he isn't, and instead he simply fell into something that would break his fall but not be fatal and Superman flew him to prison of screen.

For Iron Man and Pepper killing Iron Monger...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZt_Ab9StwU

Iron Monger is winning this fight and about to kill Tony. Those two know that the button will shut down his suit, but have no way of knowing that he'll fall forwards instead of backwards, or that even that falling forwards would end up being fatal to him, since I'm sure there are a dozen different ways that the Iron Monger suit could have ended up cushioning his fall and keeping him alive if he hadn't fallen directly into the Arc Reactor. There's no reason to assume that either Tony or Pepper have the sort of surefire knowledge that pushing the button will kill Iron Monger as opposed to how much knowledge Superman has that snapping Zod's neck will kill him.

From Guardians of the Galaxy, its worth pointing out that the audience isn't going to hold the Guardians whose leader describes himself as "An a-hole, but not 100% a dick" to the same moral standards as Superman. Guardians of the Galaxy is about a bunch of people learning to slowly but surely become barely functional members of society ("That doesn't follow, I want it more!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fHPaYglCUw ) so we are not surprised when they kill their villains and see nothing out of character or objectionable when they do it.

As for the first Avengers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0xhkLQZ9_0

All the alien soldiers stop moving when their mothership is destroyed. Given movie logic there is no reason to assume that said aliens aren't actually just more organic looking robots since they behave the exact same way the battle droids do in Episode 1 when their own mothership is shot down, much like how Manchester Black in this Superman movie points out that the huge cockroach things Superman was fighting don't have brains, thus he doesn't need to worry about holding back...



In short it all boils down to three questions.

1: Do I hold this character up to be a role model.

2: Do I believe they knowingly killed someone of human level intelligence.

3: Do I believe that they had other options?

If any of the above questions are answered "No" then odds are most of the audience are willing to go along with it.

The Superman killing in Superman 2 gets a "No" to the second question from me because I don't believe he actually killed Zod.

But the Superman killing of Zod in man of Steel is three "yes"s and that is why so many people have a problem with it.

you didn't respond to my comments about the animated Wonder Woman movie.

again, everyone else I know of assumes Zod died in Superman 2

and wile their movies try to paint them as anti-heroes, I really don't see the Guardians of the Galaxy as that different from Iron Man. speaking of, I am pretty sure the Arc Reactor blast is what killed Iron Monger and not the fall and for whatever reason, I thought killing him was their intention.

and speaking of DC animation, in the DCAU continuity, Superman is not only willing but very much wants to kill Darksied, he's almost gleeful at the thought of ending the New God, and yet it was never shown as a bad thing.

[Garro]

again, everyone else I know of assumes Zod died in Superman 2

Apologies, I'm not going to get involved with this, but there is one minor bit in relation to that: Zod wasn't planned to be killed. This scene was in more or less every version I have seen save for the DVD and, from what I know, the theatrical release:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA5d66AnT7s[/youtube]

Normally I wouldn't count this given it's a deleted scene, but Richard Donner never intended for Superman to kill the villains, and it was omitted thanks to Richard Lester taking over. Given it was his original vision, and it keeps showing up in tv re-runs, it's worth considering. Also, the Donner Cut has Superman turning back time to prevent Zod and co. escaping, and saving a lot of lives as a result.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

youtu.be/mA5d66AnT7s

[iwfan53]

but again, no one ever complained when the Christopher Reeves version of Superman killed Zod even though that Zod was no longer an immediate threat.

and I haven't seen all the MCU movies but even if what you say about Captain America is true, there are still examples in the other movies in that series. Iron Man and Pepper killed Iron Monger, the Guardians of the Galaxy killed Ronan and Ego and this is one of the ones I haven't seen yet still but didn't they kill all the henchmen aliens in the first Avengers?

and back to DC, there is the Wonder Woman animated movie from ten years back, no one ever complained about her killing there, and not just Ares but random members of his cult too.

I didn't get around to this part in my first post till I edited it so let me just hit the high points.

The audience sees Zod take a fall of unkown height to land in an unkown location. Can you find me a clip from the movie (or any of the ones that follow) of anyone ever directly talking about Zod being dead? Because if there is no such evidence, then the most logical thing to assume is that he isn't, and instead he simply fell into something that would break his fall but not be fatal and Superman flew him to prison of screen.

For Iron Man and Pepper killing Iron Monger...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZt_Ab9StwU

Iron Monger is winning this fight and about to kill Tony. Those two know that the button will shut down his suit, but have no way of knowing that he'll fall forwards instead of backwards, or that even that falling forwards would end up being fatal to him, since I'm sure there are a dozen different ways that the Iron Monger suit could have ended up cushioning his fall and keeping him alive if he hadn't fallen directly into the Arc Reactor. There's no reason to assume that either Tony or Pepper have the sort of surefire knowledge that pushing the button will kill Iron Monger as opposed to how much knowledge Superman has that snapping Zod's neck will kill him.

From Guardians of the Galaxy, its worth pointing out that the audience isn't going to hold the Guardians whose leader describes himself as "An a-hole, but not 100% a dick" to the same moral standards as Superman. Guardians of the Galaxy is about a bunch of people learning to slowly but surely become barely functional members of society ("That doesn't follow, I want it more!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fHPaYglCUw ) so we are not surprised when they kill their villains and see nothing out of character or objectionable when they do it.

As for the first Avengers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0xhkLQZ9_0

All the alien soldiers stop moving when their mothership is destroyed. Given movie logic there is no reason to assume that said aliens aren't actually just more organic looking robots since they behave the exact same way the battle droids do in Episode 1 when their own mothership is shot down, much like how Manchester Black in this Superman movie points out that the huge cockroach things Superman was fighting don't have brains, thus he doesn't need to worry about holding back...



In short it all boils down to three questions.

1: Do I hold this character up to be a role model.

2: Do I believe they knowingly killed someone of human level intelligence.

3: Do I believe that they had other options?

If any of the above questions are answered "No" then odds are most of the audience are willing to go along with it.

The Superman killing in Superman 2 gets a "No" to the second question from me because I don't believe he actually killed Zod.

But the Superman killing of Zod in man of Steel is three "yes"s and that is why so many people have a problem with it.

you didn't respond to my comments about the animated Wonder Woman movie.

again, everyone else I know of assumes Zod died in Superman 2

and wile their movies try to paint them as anti-heroes, I really don't see the Guardians of the Galaxy as that different from Iron Man. speaking of, I am pretty sure the Arc Reactor blast is what killed Iron Monger and not the fall and for whatever reason, I thought killing him was their intention.

and speaking of DC animation, in the DCAU continuity, Superman is not only willing but very much wants to kill Darksied, he's almost gleeful at the thought of ending the New God, and yet it was never shown as a bad thing.

I haven't seen the animated Wonder Woman movie, can you find me a clip of the kill in question so that I can better comment on it from a position of knowledge?


As for viewing Guardians of the Galaxy as such moral paragons that you have problems with them killing people the same way that others (like myself) have a problem with Superman killing people... if that is how you view it I understand, but I can't control how other people see various movie characters. I can only say that I never saw them that way and that is why I have no objection to them killing villains, even though Ronan was very much in a defeated state where there were now plenty of options other than killing him on the table.


As for Superman and Darksied, please show me when he is willing and able to kill him at the same time.

The only time that I'd say he'd really be "able" to kill Darksied was at this point....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phWcmwlpjQo

Superman has Darksied utterly and completely beaten, but rather than finish him decides to go with "do with him as you will" turning Darksied over to society (just the society of Apokolips rather than Earth) to make the final decision, and even when his slaves show far more care and comparison to Darksied than he ever would for them, Superman does not go back on that choice though he could have easily flown down, grabbed Darksied away from them and took him some place private to kill him.

Superman may hate Darksied (and after everything Darksied has put him through he has every reason to) but we applaud the fact that Superman refuses to let that hate drive him to do things to Darksied that he wouldn't do to normal criminals, as opposed to Batman being willing to grab a gun against him in Final Crisis. This is the kind of stuff Chuck talked about in the review, we can see Superman have that desire to further brutalize Atomic Skull after he defeats him... but he shows self control and makes the morally right choice to stop inflicting violence once there is nothing more to be gained from it.

As for Iron Man, you'll need to clarify what you mean by the "arc reactor blast" do you mean the pillar of light that shot into the sky, or do you mean the explosion that happened when Iron Monger crashed into it?

I'm pretty sure there was no reason to assume the former would kill Iron Monger, and the latter it is to me unreasonable to argue that Tony's plan was to have Iron Monger fall into said reactor, because the plan started with just being shutting down his suit, and it was only his position that lead to it happening, and as I previously mentioned it would be all too easy to imagine Iron Monger falling into just random bits of Stark Tech and surviving but with his suit shut down he's arrested by SHIELD. In short there were too many ways for him to have possibly survived for me (YMMV) to treat it as a murder.

[MithrandirOlorin]

I know it's comic books and my prejudice isn't to expect nuance, but there's more than those two extremes. A job of a profession like a solider is killing people. A lot of soldiers have gone to that extreme, but not all do to make soldiery an outright terrible thing even if it's marred in the eyes of many.

To me the the thing is that fighting crime isn't actually Superman's job... it is his hobby.

Nobody pays him to do it, there's no person or organization that has any sort of oversight over where or how he does it, and there's no one who can tell him (or at least no one can force him) to step down and stop doing it because they want to replace him with someone else.

Superman isn't a soldier, Superman isn't a cop, superman isn't even a firefighter, he's a random guy on the street who sees something horrible happening and steps in to try and make the world a slightly better place... just add superpowers.

So when you have stuff like that in mind, there's a very good reason why we should all be glad that Superman doesn't start choosing who lives and who dies, because unlike professional soldiers, he's doesn't have a long list of rules of engagement to follow only his own morality.

Sure maybe Superman won't always slide down into being a tyrant once he starts killing, maybe he'll just realize that if he's going to have this power he needs to place himself under some guidelines /system and allow himself to work directly for the Government and we end up going down the road we see him travel in Dark Knight Returns...

Long story short as SF Debris himself says, the problem of repeat superpowered offenders is a societal problem rather than one relating to the moral choices of the superheroes who fight them.

I oppose Capital Punishment on principal, so saying it's Gotham's fault for not executing The Joker bugs me a bit. I reject the nothing that the state has any more of a right to kill someone like that then Batman does, if you think they should be allowed to there is no reason to not let Batman in my view.

[Garro]

youtu.be/mA5d66AnT7s

Oh, thank you for the correction.

[iwfan53]

I know it's comic books and my prejudice isn't to expect nuance, but there's more than those two extremes. A job of a profession like a solider is killing people. A lot of soldiers have gone to that extreme, but not all do to make soldiery an outright terrible thing even if it's marred in the eyes of many.

To me the the thing is that fighting crime isn't actually Superman's job... it is his hobby.

Nobody pays him to do it, there's no person or organization that has any sort of oversight over where or how he does it, and there's no one who can tell him (or at least no one can force him) to step down and stop doing it because they want to replace him with someone else.

Superman isn't a soldier, Superman isn't a cop, superman isn't even a firefighter, he's a random guy on the street who sees something horrible happening and steps in to try and make the world a slightly better place... just add superpowers.

So when you have stuff like that in mind, there's a very good reason why we should all be glad that Superman doesn't start choosing who lives and who dies, because unlike professional soldiers, he's doesn't have a long list of rules of engagement to follow only his own morality.

Sure maybe Superman won't always slide down into being a tyrant once he starts killing, maybe he'll just realize that if he's going to have this power he needs to place himself under some guidelines /system and allow himself to work directly for the Government and we end up going down the road we see him travel in Dark Knight Returns...

Long story short as SF Debris himself says, the problem of repeat superpowered offenders is a societal problem rather than one relating to the moral choices of the superheroes who fight them.

I oppose Capital Punishment on principal, so saying it's Gotham's fault for not executing The Joker bugs me a bit. I reject the nothing that the state has any more of a right to kill someone like that then Batman does, if you think they should be allowed to there is no reason to not let Batman in my view.

I also oppose Capital Punishment since the government is inevitably going to A) use it on someone innocent and B) use it in a less than impartial manner (IE non-white people being more likely to be given the death penalty.)

Can we agree it is Gotham's/society's fault for not being able to build and properly staff an escape-proof mental institution/prison to hold the Joker and other supervillains after he/they are captured?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I oppose Capital Punishment on principal, so saying it's Gotham's fault for not executing The Joker bugs me a bit. I reject the nothing that the state has any more of a right to kill someone like that then Batman does, if you think they should be allowed to there is no reason to not let Batman in my view.

Not even just this once?

[Dragon Ball Fan]

but again, no one ever complained when the Christopher Reeves version of Superman killed Zod even though that Zod was no longer an immediate threat.

and I haven't seen all the MCU movies but even if what you say about Captain America is true, there are still examples in the other movies in that series. Iron Man and Pepper killed Iron Monger, the Guardians of the Galaxy killed Ronan and Ego and this is one of the ones I haven't seen yet still but didn't they kill all the henchmen aliens in the first Avengers?

and back to DC, there is the Wonder Woman animated movie from ten years back, no one ever complained about her killing there, and not just Ares but random members of his cult too.

I didn't get around to this part in my first post till I edited it so let me just hit the high points.

The audience sees Zod take a fall of unkown height to land in an unkown location. Can you find me a clip from the movie (or any of the ones that follow) of anyone ever directly talking about Zod being dead? Because if there is no such evidence, then the most logical thing to assume is that he isn't, and instead he simply fell into something that would break his fall but not be fatal and Superman flew him to prison of screen.

For Iron Man and Pepper killing Iron Monger...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZt_Ab9StwU

Iron Monger is winning this fight and about to kill Tony. Those two know that the button will shut down his suit, but have no way of knowing that he'll fall forwards instead of backwards, or that even that falling forwards would end up being fatal to him, since I'm sure there are a dozen different ways that the Iron Monger suit could have ended up cushioning his fall and keeping him alive if he hadn't fallen directly into the Arc Reactor. There's no reason to assume that either Tony or Pepper have the sort of surefire knowledge that pushing the button will kill Iron Monger as opposed to how much knowledge Superman has that snapping Zod's neck will kill him.

From Guardians of the Galaxy, its worth pointing out that the audience isn't going to hold the Guardians whose leader describes himself as "An a-hole, but not 100% a dick" to the same moral standards as Superman. Guardians of the Galaxy is about a bunch of people learning to slowly but surely become barely functional members of society ("That doesn't follow, I want it more!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fHPaYglCUw ) so we are not surprised when they kill their villains and see nothing out of character or objectionable when they do it.

As for the first Avengers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0xhkLQZ9_0

All the alien soldiers stop moving when their mothership is destroyed. Given movie logic there is no reason to assume that said aliens aren't actually just more organic looking robots since they behave the exact same way the battle droids do in Episode 1 when their own mothership is shot down, much like how Manchester Black in this Superman movie points out that the huge cockroach things Superman was fighting don't have brains, thus he doesn't need to worry about holding back...



In short it all boils down to three questions.

1: Do I hold this character up to be a role model.

2: Do I believe they knowingly killed someone of human level intelligence.

3: Do I believe that they had other options?

If any of the above questions are answered "No" then odds are most of the audience are willing to go along with it.

The Superman killing in Superman 2 gets a "No" to the second question from me because I don't believe he actually killed Zod.

But the Superman killing of Zod in man of Steel is three "yes"s and that is why so many people have a problem with it.

you didn't respond to my comments about the animated Wonder Woman movie.

again, everyone else I know of assumes Zod died in Superman 2

and wile their movies try to paint them as anti-heroes, I really don't see the Guardians of the Galaxy as that different from Iron Man. speaking of, I am pretty sure the Arc Reactor blast is what killed Iron Monger and not the fall and for whatever reason, I thought killing him was their intention.

and speaking of DC animation, in the DCAU continuity, Superman is not only willing but very much wants to kill Darksied, he's almost gleeful at the thought of ending the New God, and yet it was never shown as a bad thing.

I haven't seen the animated Wonder Woman movie, can you find me a clip of the kill in question so that I can better comment on it from a position of knowledge?


As for viewing Guardians of the Galaxy as such moral paragons that you have problems with them killing people the same way that others (like myself) have a problem with Superman killing people... if that is how you view it I understand, but I can't control how other people see various movie characters. I can only say that I never saw them that way and that is why I have no objection to them killing villains, even though Ronan was very much in a defeated state where there were now plenty of options other than killing him on the table.


As for Superman and Darksied, please show me when he is willing and able to kill him at the same time.

The only time that I'd say he'd really be "able" to kill Darksied was at this point....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phWcmwlpjQo

Superman has Darksied utterly and completely beaten, but rather than finish him decides to go with "do with him as you will" turning Darksied over to society (just the society of Apokolips rather than Earth) to make the final decision, and even when his slaves show far more care and comparison to Darksied than he ever would for them, Superman does not go back on that choice though he could have easily flown down, grabbed Darksied away from them and took him some place private to kill him.

Superman may hate Darksied (and after everything Darksied has put him through he has every reason to) but we applaud the fact that Superman refuses to let that hate drive him to do things to Darksied that he wouldn't do to normal criminals, as opposed to Batman being willing to grab a gun against him in Final Crisis. This is the kind of stuff Chuck talked about in the review, we can see Superman have that desire to further brutalize Atomic Skull after he defeats him... but he shows self control and makes the morally right choice to stop inflicting violence once there is nothing more to be gained from it.

As for Iron Man, you'll need to clarify what you mean by the "arc reactor blast" do you mean the pillar of light that shot into the sky, or do you mean the explosion that happened when Iron Monger crashed into it?

I'm pretty sure there was no reason to assume the former would kill Iron Monger, and the latter it is to me unreasonable to argue that Tony's plan was to have Iron Monger fall into said reactor, because the plan started with just being shutting down his suit, and it was only his position that lead to it happening, and as I previously mentioned it would be all too easy to imagine Iron Monger falling into just random bits of Stark Tech and surviving but with his suit shut down he's arrested by SHIELD. In short there were too many ways for him to have possibly survived for me (YMMV) to treat it as a murder.

I don't have problems with the Guardians of the Galaxy killing their villains, my point is I wouldn't have a problem with Superman or Batman killing either. because I'm not so far up my own ass about morals that I don't know the difference between premeditated murder and justified homicide.

and Superman leaving Darksied to his slaves still would have been a vigilante killing outside of due process.

and when Darksied actually died in the cartoon, Superman wanted to go into the exploding asteroid to make sure Darksied was dead and I always assumed it wasn't for pragmatic reasons but for revenge reasons.

and here is the Wonder Woman movie clip where she killed Ares, couldn't find the other instance, though. Ares here is already depowered and begging for mercy from Zeus like happened in the movie's prologue when Wondy decapitates him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoFjSbMT3Eg

I have no problem with it because Ares could easily become a threat again but my question is why the "heroes must never kill, ever, even in self defense" crowd didn't have a problem with it.

and every time, EVERY time the question of weather superheroes should kill, they don't present the opposing side of the argument as anything but strawmen. eve there was every a superhero story that presented the side of the argument in favor of killing reasonable, please tell me.

and again, because say, Gothem City's government is so corrupt, it can't be trusted to ever kill the Joker for Batman, leaving it up to society in this case is a lost cause and wile this isn't literally what's happening, the Joker might as well be murdering innocent people every second of every day, he's a danger to society just by existing.

and even a Disney Junior show of all things has the kind of message I wish Superhero stories would tell. and it could be considered a superhero show and thus not a random example, just one that's only about magic based heroes.

in Elena of Avalor, the evil sorceress Suriki took over the titular kingdom murdered the King and Queen, imprisoned the title character in and the rest of her family in a fate worse then death for over forty years. when Elena returns, they defeat Suriki non fatally but Suriki just comes back and eventually gets a hold of the most powerful dark magical artifact in existence. and in a battle, Elena killed Suriki as per the word of the creator when some ambiguity arose. and Elena had been completely willing to kill Suriki from the very start both out of a desire to protect her kingdom as Crown Princess and out of revenge but the show never once gave any moral handringing about how this was a bad thing.