Superman V.S The Elite

[Dragon Ball Fan]

I'll defer to what BridgeConsoleMasher said about the Justice League having rules for the first part. For the second part about the alternate universe, if we really need a Watsonian perspective,idk maybe this particular Batman was just sane enough to stop himself before he went too far? Or Robin pulled him back at the very end? Anyway I do think if written badly it can come across like Bats or Supes are one bad day away from going on a killing spree or becoming a dictator. But when written well (IMO this movie and the Justice League Cartoon), it's more about how once they start breaking their rules for one case it's easier to start coming up with justifications to keep doing more and more.

but then how come other universes like the Injustice reality, breaking the killing rule goes bad, is it just a simple as "just because it worked out in that timeline doesn't mean it will work out in all of them"?

but as someone else implied earlier, Superman's ideals are not disconnected from reality but they are very much disconnected from HIS reality. it's clear that leaving things up to society in the DC Universe is a lost cause and if Superman is providing anything in terms of hope, it is not enough.

and again, you said Superman and Batman know they can't hold others to the same moral standards as themselves, when was that point made? maybe it's because I am more familiar with adaptations like cartoons but from what I see, they do force everyone else to be exactly like them.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Well as I was saying, Batman does hold others to his exact standard when they are on his team.

[M.A.C.O.]

Well as I was saying, Batman does hold others to his exact standard when they are on his team.

Except Jason Todd (Red Hood) is still allowed to run around the DCU and kill people. While Batman does nothing about it. It breaks the universe. Having Batman in the comics with a staunch no kill rule, a former protege of Batman killing people with the very skills he learned from Batman, and Batman seemingly turning a blind eye to it. Dick and Tim confront Jason about his behavior, and have fought to stop him and have him locked up. Bruce has not. Presumably because of guilt of letting him die or the writers just hoping people don't notice the incongruity.

Damian, Batman's son, is directly under his father's supervision and he kills people as well. Less frequently than he used to or would like. But Damian's excursions treated as nurturing failures, do to how he was raised by Talia and the League.

Damian gets a pass because he's portrayed as a child. A child who the writers put as the lead a group of teenage heroes who are older than him and have longer superhero careers than he does. Because... Son of the Batgod. Only the Batgod, smarter than everyone and MVP of the JL can correct the little hellion.

[MithrandirOlorin]

In Superman 2, Supes didn't kill Zodd or his lieutenants. (Nor did Lois.) There's footage that didn't make it to the theatrical cut but shows on tv all the time that shows them being carted off by the arctic police after its all said and done.

https://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/chris-reeve-movies/ric21.jpg

I don't know how much deleted scenes "count", but it was clearly the filmmaker's intent that they be alive at the end, and instead of that footage hiding in a bin it made it to the longer tv cuts pretty much immediately.

Of course the Donner cut reuses the "travel through time" ending so who knows how that works, but Donner has been pretty clear he would have done *something* else for the ending had he actually finished the film, since it did after all get moved up to the first film.

Deleted Scenes aren't Canon, no one knew about that scene till years later, Reeve's Superman killed Zod with a smile on his face, live with it.

And you are one who determines what is canon and what is not instead of DC, WB or Donner while arrogantly telling others to live it? No it's not up to you and fact that that scene is in TV version makes it valid to be canon even if you don't agree with that.

It was not even included in the Donner Cut. Also it's just plain stupid to suggest that Could survive that, he probably died when he hit the wall.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Well as I was saying, Batman does hold others to his exact standard when they are on his team.

Except Jason Todd (Red Hood) is still allowed to run around the DCU and kill people. While Batman does nothing about it. It breaks the universe. Having Batman in the comics with a staunch no kill rule, a former protege of Batman killing people with the very skills he learned from Batman, and Batman seemingly turning a blind eye to it. Dick and Tim confront Jason about his behavior, and have fought to stop him and have him locked up. Bruce has not. Presumably because of guilt of letting him die or the writers just hoping people don't notice the incongruity.

Damian, Batman's son, is directly under his father's supervision and he kills people as well. Less frequently than he used to or would like. But Damian's excursions treated as nurturing failures, do to how he was raised by Talia and the League.

Damian gets a pass because he's portrayed as a child. A child who the writers put as the lead a group of teenage heroes who are older than him and have longer superhero careers than he does. Because... Son of the Batgod. Only the Batgod, smarter than everyone and MVP of the JL can correct the little hellion.

Alright. Here's the thing. Batman's conscience to not kill is a practice. A deep rooted anxiety of his that he has developed since he was a kid as we all know. It's also the mothership to how he operates his operations. His attention to detail, his omnipotence, etc... it's all a product specifically of that cognitive prerogative of his that runs very tight as to hold his focus together. Breaking that tautness results in a system compromise that will put the city at risk as he's not able to wrap his mind quite comprehensively around Gotham and what goes on in it.

So he swims around in his contemplation whenever the issue to kill Joker comes up. As an audience we're drawn to the dilemma pretty intimately as it challenges Bruce's programming. It challenges his own system and he's receptive to external pressures motivating him to consider killing people. He chooses to let them go in order to sustain his own cognitive functioning.

And The Red Hood is not someone that's associated with the Bat Family at all. He's just personally someone that Bruce lets get away, Bruce's own responsibility taken into consideration as well. If it's his operation and he needs to save lives, or he knows about people they're going after, then he prevents it, but he does not kill Joker, and he does not turn Jason in.

[clearspira]

To this day I still maintain Dean Cain one of the best live action portrayals of Superman precisely because his Superman WAS the comic book version. Personality, thoughts, feelings. This is the same guy. Teri Hatcher was the best live action Lois too.

His Lex sucked though.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I like Lex Luthor best in Public Enemies and Crisis on Two Earths.

[PapaPalpatine]

Assuming he still has his father's device, Why wouldn't Kal-El just send Atomic Skull to the Phantom Zone? Not only would being trapped in the Zone preclude him causing any further harm to innocent people, but the worst his powers would do to the others imprisoned there is maybe give them a bad case of heart burn.

[iwfan53]

I am genuinely curious what Superman's other options were when dealing with Zod at the climax of MOS. Grant Morrison, Joe Kelly (author of What's So Funny About Truth Justice and the American Way), Mark Waid, and Mark Millar all said post-MOS that Supes would have found another way. But, incidentally, none of them ever explained or detailed what that other way was.

With no Phantom Zone projector, no Kryptonite, no prison on Earth that could hold, and Zod being uncontrollable villain with the same strength, durability and mobility as Superman. What is you solution? I can stand to be convinced.

To start with Superman needs to deal with the fact that Zod is about to laser those families with his heat vision.

To deal with that he should exhale superbreath onto Zod's neck temporarily freezing it in place. With Zod no longer able to turn his neck he won't be able to kill the innocent family.

That problem now dealt with, Superman should more or less fly straight up into the air while holding onto Zod so as to fly him away from as many innocent people and easily damageable buildings as possible.

While Kryptonite hasn't been found yet, there is very much a Kryptonian atmosphere onboard Zod's ships that is shown leaving Superman powerless throughout the film. Fly into one of those ships and slam Zod into a wall of it hard enough to knock him out cold.

Then while outside of the ship and thus having access to his powers powers, rip chunks off of it apply heat vision as necessary in order to sculpt said chunks into a cell to hold Zod.

From there continue on to rip up more of the ships in order to build not just a cell but an entire prison that can hold Zod in more humane capacity along with any other captured Kryptonians.

[PapaPalpatine]

Chuck: "I learned that in Champions."

Yes, I knew it.