Superman V.S The Elite

[TheStarWarsTrek]

if comic writers want me to believe the justice system works and uphold the no killing rule then, here's what they have to do, the next time the Joker or Major Force are arrested, that's it, they stay locked up and are never in the comics ever again.

That's the heart of the matter. The question of "Should Batman kill the Joker, or allow him to keep escaping and killing" is a false dilemma. Because it's not a binary one or the other choice, because there are other ways Batman could neutralize that threat. Break all his bones every 6 months, use his tech to make the most advanced prison on earth, get Mr. Freeze to freeze him, launch him in the phantom zone or another world, ect. And it's not a matter of saying "The justice system in the DC universe just sucks either". For one thing, it's far removed from reality. (IRL the "insanity plea" defense usually means the perp didn't understand what he was doing was wrong, which dosn't apply to the Joker, and IRL we don't have issues of serial killer terrorists breaking out of prison like clock work). And for another thing, there are lots of way Bruce Wayne could use his influence to solve the issue working *within* the system. I'm not even talking bribes, he could lobby for laws to change, pay to make Arkham the best prison in the world, etc.

There is really only one explanation for why super villains keep coming back: to sell more comics.

I usually like to come up with in-universe explanations for things, but really there is no possible explanation. It happens sometimes and we have to handwave it. Just like there's no explanation for why with all the advanced tech Marvel or DC's earths haven't started colonizing space yet. Or how Batman can use a grapel gun without his arm being popped out of it's socket. Or why Mr. Fantastic once invented a universal translator, and it somehow failed to make any sort of impact on society.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

if comic writers want me to believe the justice system works and uphold the no killing rule then, here's what they have to do, the next time the Joker or Major Force are arrested, that's it, they stay locked up and are never in the comics ever again.

That's the heart of the matter. The question of "Should Batman kill the Joker, or allow him to keep escaping and killing" is a false dilemma. Because it's not a binary one or the other choice, because there are other ways Batman could neutralize that threat. Break all his bones every 6 months, use his tech to make the most advanced prison on earth, get Mr. Freeze to freeze him, launch him in the phantom zone or another world, ect. And it's not a matter of saying "The justice system in the DC universe just sucks either". For one thing, it's far removed from reality. (IRL the "insanity plea" defense usually means the perp didn't understand what he was doing was wrong, which dosn't apply to the Joker, and IRL we don't have issues of serial killer terrorists breaking out of prison like clock work). And for another thing, there are lots of way Bruce Wayne could use his influence to solve the issue working *within* the system. I'm not even talking bribes, he could lobby for laws to change, pay to make Arkham the best prison in the world, etc.

There is really only one explanation for why super villains keep coming back: to sell more comics.

I usually like to come up with in-universe explanations for things, but really there is no possible explanation. It happens sometimes and we have to handwave it. Just like there's no explanation for why with all the advanced tech Marvel or DC's earths haven't started colonizing space yet. Or how Batman can use a grapel gun without his arm being popped out of it's socket. Or why Mr. Fantastic once invented a universal translator, and it somehow failed to make any sort of impact on society.

really, doesn't that all just prove my point? Batman could do all those things but he doesn't and like I said, the writers inability to have the most evil and dangerous villains locked up undermines their own message about the justice system.

[Darth Wedgius]

If Batman killed the Joker, how long would the Joker stay dead? I think he'd be back in a week, joining a support group (very awkwardly since Jason Todd would be in there too). If he offers to bring snacks, that's a hard pass.

[TheStarWarsTrek]

The message has never been "the justice system always works". Going back to Superman vs the Elite specifically, Superman says multiple times that the system (and the world) isn't perfect. Even disregarding the artificial problem of Arkham type revolving door super prisons, there are other ways it can fail. But he says that it's better to try to live up to our ideals and "make that dream a reality" rather than give in to our dark impulses. And if anything, Superman figuring out how to remove the Elite's powers is refreshing. For once the hero is able to take a third option that the Status Quo normally prevents.

Now that I think about it, it parallels nicely with ATLA. Aang's struggle with how to stop Firelord Ozai without killing him was ultimately resolved by removing Ozai's bending.

[Karha of Honor]

Superman isn't a soldier, Superman isn't a cop, superman isn't even a firefighter, he's a random guy on the street who sees something horrible happening and steps in to try and make the world a slightly better place... just add superpowers.

Most superheroes are that.

I find it reflective of the American cultural origins of comics as that is fundamentally what Americans look on their nation as a whole as.

Care to elaborate on that?

The aloof, uninvolved loner who is in his little sanctuary who intervenes when they decide others are in need of help that has no obligation or position of authority to compel them to do so. Superheroes are highly individualistic yet are individuals which acknowledge their duty to society as a whole even if they prefer to remain apart from it.

Americans love their non-interventionist history until the turn of the 20th Century, then make much of how they came to the aid of others in the two World Wars while also trying to undo Europe's empires and create a situation where all nations can effectively be American, free and to their own.

One can also see it too in a lot of it in the bitching many Americans have done in the past ten years or more about being tired of being the global police, wishing to drop everyone and just go back to looking after their own matters not realizing that it's decades too late to do that being the global hegemon since about 1943.

Superman is not aloof.

How is it to late? Who is going to force them if they decide not to? The Martian Imperial Monarchy?

[RobbyB1982]

It was not even included in the Donner Cut. Also it's just plain stupid to suggest that Could survive that, he probably died when he hit the wall.

The Donner cut reuses the footage of the timetravel ending of the first film and undoes the whole movie, of course they don't have the arresting scene.

"The Donner Cut" isn't really his cut. It's about 4 solder scenes replaced with alternate scenes and slightly different editing to take out some excessive joke, which still forcibly having to use about 40% of the other director's material. It wasn't a finished film with all the footage it would have needed to be a complete unique cut or true to Donner's original vision and intent.


And there is a differece between a deleted scene and an extended scene. Deleted was cut because it didn't work in the flow of the final film for whatever reason. Extended was cut sheerly due to run time but was always intended to be in the film. Just look at LotR for the primo example.

Generally deleted scenes are left as bonus snippets as a dvd extra, while extended scenes get spliced back into the film proper once theatrical run time isn't an issue.

[iwfan53]

Superman is not aloof.

How is it to late? Who is going to force them if they decide not to? The Martian Imperial Monarchy?

At the risk of being that guy and just discussing politics without even the veneer of superheroes (which is why I promise not to do any more posts in this line of argument)

You are correct that there is no nation powerful enough to force the US out of isolationism if we fell back into it.

That said, the US has become interconnected enough with the other countries of the world that to go into isolationism again would be morally reprehensible (to say the least) due to all the countries that depend on us for military aid, for economic aid, or as a place to take in refugees from various crises around the world.

[clearspira]

Superman is not aloof.

How is it to late? Who is going to force them if they decide not to? The Martian Imperial Monarchy?

At the risk of being that guy and just discussing politics without even the veneer of superheroes (which is why I promise not to do any more posts in this line of argument)

You are correct that there is no nation powerful enough to force the US out of isolationism if we fell back into it.

That said, the US has become interconnected enough with the other countries of the world that to go into isolationism again would be morally reprehensible (to say the least) due to all the countries that depend on us for military aid, for economic aid, or as a place to take in refugees from various crises around the world.

Its called the global economy. People like Trump likes to think it does not exist, wanting everything made, produced, designed and created to be 'Murican, but without it America would be TRILLIONS worse off. Do you (not you in particular, this is general ''you'') realise how much Coca Cola, Disney, McDonalds, Amazon, Ford etc. make in other countries? Do you realise how much arms contracts with other countries make? Do you realise how important the petrodollar is? Do you realise just how many scientific and medical innovations are made by international teams?

Could America become isolationist? Sure. But only the people who sit around complaining about how ''them awful foreigners have stolen my job'' would actually want that to happen. The people who are actually responsible for keeping America rich and influential wouldn't want that for a moment.

[CrypticMirror]

If Batman killed the Joker, how long would the Joker stay dead? I think he'd be back in a week, joining a support group (very awkwardly since Jason Todd would be in there too). If he offers to bring snacks, that's a hard pass.

I wish they'd write a story where someone does kill the Joker, and then not only does the Gotham underworld explode in hitherto unprecedented violence (since for a lot of those guys, they idea that the Joker might hunt them down if they got on his turf has to be a restraining factor), people trying to out Joker the Joker, and then, just as that has been calmed down, the Joker comes back having taken over hell itself and is now a demon, and now they have a demonic Joker with superpowers running riot, and that is when things start to get bad. Them Batman time travels back to stop whoever killed the Joker from doing it, and that can finally put an end to the old "kill the Joker" meme. Make that the next DC event, DC and Didiot, I dare you.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

The message has never been "the justice system always works". Going back to Superman vs the Elite specifically, Superman says multiple times that the system (and the world) isn't perfect. Even disregarding the artificial problem of Arkham type revolving door super prisons, there are other ways it can fail. But he says that it's better to try to live up to our ideals and "make that dream a reality" rather than give in to our dark impulses. And if anything, Superman figuring out how to remove the Elite's powers is refreshing. For once the hero is able to take a third option that the Status Quo normally prevents.

Now that I think about it, it parallels nicely with ATLA. Aang's struggle with how to stop Firelord Ozai without killing him was ultimately resolved by removing Ozai's bending.

it's not that the justice system in comic book universes isn't perfect, it might as well not exist at all. and again, that has not improved in the slightest.