Superman V.S The Elite

[TheStarWarsTrek]

The message has never been "the justice system always works". Going back to Superman vs the Elite specifically, Superman says multiple times that the system (and the world) isn't perfect. Even disregarding the artificial problem of Arkham type revolving door super prisons, there are other ways it can fail. But he says that it's better to try to live up to our ideals and "make that dream a reality" rather than give in to our dark impulses. And if anything, Superman figuring out how to remove the Elite's powers is refreshing. For once the hero is able to take a third option that the Status Quo normally prevents.

Now that I think about it, it parallels nicely with ATLA. Aang's struggle with how to stop Firelord Ozai without killing him was ultimately resolved by removing Ozai's bending.

it's not that the justice system in comic book universes isn't perfect, it might as well not exist at all. and again, that has not improved in the slightest.

If it truly didn't exist at all, the Earth would be a blasted hellscape ruled by surviving super villains.

I feel like this is just a fundamental disagreement on if the DC universe is a dystopia or not. I'm leaning towards not (though I'm also more familiar with the cartoons than the comics). I don't think we're going to convince each other, so I'll just say my final piece. I do think the comic's need to stick to a status quo can be damaging. Gotham always has a crime problem, certain villains are too popular with readers to be permanently defeated, Mr. Fantastic cant make flying cars available to the public. But I also think our view of these situations can be exaggerated by the compressed nature of time in comic books vs time IRL, and what Chuck said about how constant bombardment of negative information can make things seem like they're getting worse when they're getting better.

[CharlesPhipps]

The DCU exists in a very loose continuity because, it's a bunch of stories told about the same characters. It's a very dangerous place but we can safely assume 100+ Years of Superman beating ass didn't exist continuously.

Depending on the timeline, some pretty horrible things have happened (Coast City being destroyed would be like someone nuking San Diego) but for the most part, the most horrifying things have happened to heroes rather than the public at large.

[clearspira]

The Marvel or DC universe is great place to live... if you are one of the 1% that have superpowers or are on the extreme side of badass normal like Ironman or Batman. The other 99%? They're the one's running away when their city gets torn up for the third time that week. And even if you are one of the lucky one's, the chances of you having some useless bullshit power that in no way offsets the fact that you are now either an outcast or at a higher risk of a supervillain or government agency targeting you are very high.

This would be a hellish place to live. And why, as I have said before, concepts such as the mutant registration act or bigotry against metahumans and mutants is completely understandable imo. Its all very well for us to sit here in our armchairs shaking our heads; its quite another when you live in a world where people can steal your body or mind rape you with a single thought. At barest minimum, trust would be a foreign concept in such a world.

[Beastro]

Superman is not aloof.

Yes, with his Fotress of Solitude and all.

How is it to late? Who is going to force them if they decide not to? The Martian Imperial Monarchy?

It would create a vacuum of power that would usher in another period of instability just like we had in the first half of the 20th Century which led to the dethronement of the previous global hegemon, the British Empire and its replacement with the US.

Such instability would impact the United States if only through the severe economic disruption it would produce and the wars that would come with it would be a return of the World kind, just as the conflicts around the global hegemon grew in scale until they reached that level since the first came into being in the 16th Century (The Spanish Empire).

Gotham always has a crime problem, certain villains are too popular with readers to be permanently defeated, Mr. Fantastic cant make flying cars available to the public.

This is the largest problem with the thematic side to comic books and why I feel they are prevented from being more than what they are (and this thus keeps them a lowly form of fiction).

The trouble isn't so much that nothing ever changes, it's that nothing ever ends. No one is dead forever, everything can be undone, even whole universes.

Looking back, it's a reason why I could never develop an interest in them even if I did enjoy the spat of cartoons in the 90s about them. To me, those cartoons are the definitive versions of each of the individuals or groups they're about, though I recognize that they aren't to the extent other works are, such as Tolkien's Legendarium that don't have multiple authors each trying to pull the setting in their own direction and doing their own thing with it that means, that while things like what Shadow of War did to Shelob exist, the story of such a game does not stand shoulder to shoulder with the canon Tolkien and his son have created.

[CharlesPhipps]

The Marvel or DC universe is great place to live... if you are one of the 1% that have superpowers or are on the extreme side of badass normal like Ironman or Batman. The other 99%? They're the one's running away when their city gets torn up for the third time that week. And even if you are one of the lucky one's, the chances of you having some useless bullshit power that in no way offsets the fact that you are now either an outcast or at a higher risk of a supervillain or government agency targeting you are very high.

I disagree because the 1% with superpowers are constantly living traumatic lives of running from fire to fire, putting them out or are targeted by the other people with fires. It sucks to be a mutant in Marvel but even if you're not, you're still subject to draconian laws and or people trying to recruit you. If you are a superhero, you live a life of clones, constant attempts by people to destroy you, and suspicion by the government.

[Robovski]

Imagine trying to run an insurance company, or a mortgage lender, or do any kind of long-term financing in these worlds. At any moment your car/house/blast furnace/factory/office building/wife/life could be lost because the Metal Men had to stop Dr. Morrow. There is NO stability, it's like Class 5 hurricanes happen on a monthly basis and that's because these are comic books and they need to be exciting to be sold - not have worlds that hand together at all levels of inspection.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The Marvel or DC universe is great place to live... if you are one of the 1% that have superpowers or are on the extreme side of badass normal like Ironman or Batman.

I c what you did there.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Imagine trying to run an insurance company, or a mortgage lender, or do any kind of long-term financing in these worlds. At any moment your car/house/blast furnace/factory/office building/wife/life could be lost because the Metal Men had to stop Dr. Morrow. There is NO stability, it's like Class 5 hurricanes happen on a monthly basis and that's because these are comic books and they need to be exciting to be sold - not have worlds that hand together at all levels of inspection.

Things are a bit exaggerated, sure. But I don't think it's really that inconceivable.

First off, it happens in select major cities. OK so Superman likes to throw people through buildings, so you probably get a good amount of medium and heavy construction business compared to real life, where there's a good amount already. Everybody loves Superman in particular, so you probably have the city government footing the bill because they trust he's not a recloose.

I mean there might be some inconceivable nooks and crannies here and there, but we can give a little slack for the extraordinariness of it in the first place. So what if the craziest villains in DC are all in one city level psych ward/asylum? This aint the fed's jurisdiction!

[Fianna]

This is the largest problem with the thematic side to comic books and why I feel they are prevented from being more than what they are (and this thus keeps them a lowly form of fiction).

The trouble isn't so much that nothing ever changes, it's that nothing ever ends. No one is dead forever, everything can be undone, even whole universes.

Depends how you look at it. An individual story arc or a creative team's run may have exactly the sort of changes you're calling for.

Sure, at some point another creative team will come in and undo all that, but how is that any different from if I were to write a story where Beowulf and Grendel come back to life and have a bunch more epic brawls, again and again? Does the fact that I came in and wrote such a story diminish anyone's appreciation of the story Beowulf that I based it on?

[Beastro]

This is the largest problem with the thematic side to comic books and why I feel they are prevented from being more than what they are (and this thus keeps them a lowly form of fiction).

The trouble isn't so much that nothing ever changes, it's that nothing ever ends. No one is dead forever, everything can be undone, even whole universes.

Depends how you look at it. An individual story arc or a creative team's run may have exactly the sort of changes you're calling for.

Sure, at some point another creative team will come in and undo all that, but how is that any different from if I were to write a story where Beowulf and Grendel come back to life and have a bunch more epic brawls, again and again? Does the fact that I came in and wrote such a story diminish anyone's appreciation of the story Beowulf that I based it on?

That gets into legitimacy and canon.

Doing that there'd be a clear differentiation between the original poem and your work, similar to the reason why the term "fan fiction" exists. That would be different I'd say if you additions lasted the test of time and eventually became accepted as part of the canon, which is what I think happened to works like Beowulf and the Illiad as bards did their own takes, but over centuries, people worked out what those stories were really about.

The issue is, once under the flag of the company which handles something like comics, that then lends a great degree of legitimacy to whomever is making new stories in the way fan fiction never can, as it would be if Tolkien had hired people out to do other stuff in his world and official let it be known it was accepted as a part of the world.

A similar transfer happened with Lucas selling Star Wars to Disney. What would be interesting is if Lucas eventually came out and openly made a statement like "People have said the new films are shit, aren't Star Wars and I agree with. There fore I rebuke them as declare they and all future Disney SW material are non-canon unless it's clearly in keeping with the spirit of the older movies". Disney could say they own the IP and his opinion is irreverent, but that couldn't help but effect how people perceive the Disney films: Either enough people would agree and make them illegitimate in people's eyes, split people's opinions with some recognizing them and others not, or it would stress Lucas' claims to be the central authority of all things Star Wars and result in his dethronement, if only in the eyes or some.

In Tolkien's case, the only person besides himself that qualifies to have canonically added to his Legendarium has been his son, who has done it with his father's consent and with a very clear intent of preserve his father's work only adding things to help finish stuff, like fill in the blanks of incomplete stories his father never finished, or editing small things to help stories fit together better like Tolkien had spent much of his later life doing.