DS9: The Changing Face of Evil

[DanteC]

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/d570.php Now out.

For those more familiar with Trek, how do independent traders work? By, that, I mean the Federation doesn't use money any more, and they literally have technology that can make anything out of thin air. I guess it means for some people who don't want to join Starfleet that they can fly a ship, but it's still a little odd to me.

[CrypticMirror]

The changelings really do not have a good grasp of how psychology or warfare works, do they? They could have almost won there war right there, but wasted their Breen advantage by first letting them use up perfectly good resources and trained people on a suicide run that while would have a limited shock value only provides to let the Alliance know what is going on, then when they have the battle hardened core of the Alliance forces at their mercy they let them go back with not only a fair degree of intelligence and data on what happened, but also now have a need for revenge. Again, while there might be limited shock value in that, it would be far more damaging to the Alliance cause to deprive them of trained personnel and the scientific data they carried away with them. The Breen advantage was wasted on big statement pieces rather than actual military advantage.

I loved the song gag though. That was great I always like it when Chuck sings in his reviews. Sing more, Chuck, sing more!

[bronnt]

"What if this is what the Prophets had been warning Sisko about-that Cassidy might be killed by the Breen?"

That's an angle I'd never really considered, but it's only because it's a bit bullshit. Sisko loves Cassidy, and deciding not to marry her based on the advice of the Prophets wouldn't change that. He doesn't love and cherish her BECAUSE she's his wife, it's the other way around-she's his because of how important she is to him. And we're once again reminded that Sarah-Sisko-Prophet lived as a human for a few years and should have enough insight to recognize that.

You can't try to humanize gods but still let them be enigmatic, mysterious, and capable of throwing out ominous foreshadowing. Every episode is going to present more reasons why the war of Bajoran Gods is horrible storytelling and a huge distraction from a better plotline. Just like the Bashir/Ezri relationship is also pointless drama that's not worth dragging out like they did.

[GandALF]

Are the Breen related to the Ubese?

[bronnt]

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/d570.php Now out.

For those more familiar with Trek, how do independent traders work? By, that, I mean the Federation doesn't use money any more, and they literally have technology that can make anything out of thin air. I guess it means for some people who don't want to join Starfleet that they can fly a ship, but it's still a little odd to me.

What I gleaned from it is that the writers don't understand economics enough to even recognize that they need to understand something. It's become abundantly clear that there are still resources and products which cannot be replicated, either because they're complex substances, they're extremely large (like ship components), or because they still require precision manufacturing. That means there's still a market, with existing market forces and individuals who will want to be compensated for their work within that market.

It's akin to constantly reminding us that our cast doesn't use money, and yet Jadzia gambles for latinum and Quark casually comments that Worf hasn't paid his bar tab.

[CareerKnight]

The changelings really do not have a good grasp of how psychology or warfare works, do they? They could have almost won there war right there, but wasted their Breen advantage by first letting them use up perfectly good resources and trained people on a suicide run that while would have a limited shock value only provides to let the Alliance know what is going on, then when they have the battle hardened core of the Alliance forces at their mercy they let them go back with not only a fair degree of intelligence and data on what happened, but also now have a need for revenge. Again, while there might be limited shock value in that, it would be far more damaging to the Alliance cause to deprive them of trained personnel and the scientific data they carried away with them.

Another thing that ruined their victory was one of the ships resisting the Breen weapon... and them letting it escape.

That's an angle I'd never really considered, but it's only because it's a bit bullshit.

I think Chuck threw that out there less as a theory (given the rest of the series we kind of know why that warning was given) and more on what might be going through Sisko's head when he doesn't want her to head out again. And its not that bullshit of an idea. As you said he would still care if she died married or not but his thinking is likely on a kind of butterfly effect. Sisko's line of reasoning being something like if he had refused to get married then she likely would have left earlier and then would have avoided an encounter with the Breen that the Prophets warned him about.

[ScreamingDoom]

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/d570.php Now out.

For those more familiar with Trek, how do independent traders work? By, that, I mean the Federation doesn't use money any more, and they literally have technology that can make anything out of thin air. I guess it means for some people who don't want to join Starfleet that they can fly a ship, but it's still a little odd to me.

What I gleaned from it is that the writers don't understand economics enough to even recognize that they need to understand something.

Pretty much this. Basically, whenever there is a limitation in some resource and a need to decide how and where that limitation is diverted, there is economics. Now, the means to decide how and where limited resources are used and diverted might be different (command economies compared to free market, for instance), but there still needs to be a division of resources and some method to decide.

Another case in Star Trek: mining. We see mining operations all the time in Star Trek, but with the ability to replicate anything, why bother? The only reason to do so would be an economic reason that makes the trouble of building infrastructure/tools, pulling minerals out of planetary bodies, and transporting then refining those minerals better than replication in-situ.

Chuck's idea of replicators storing raw materials then organizing them on a molecular basis (as opposed to making them out of pure energy) would actually give a reason for all those mining operations. They'd still need the raw resources, after all, to stuff into a replicator's resource buffer.

[Naldiin]

The changelings really do not have a good grasp of how psychology or warfare works, do they?

I actually viewed this as intentional, to be honest. The Founders really don't have a good idea of how 'solids' (and anyone else outside the Link) work and although it causes them to repeatedly make really bad choices, the tremendous arrogance of The Link's collective self means that they basically never learn from this. Spoilers incoming:

'Sanders,' for instance, assumes that killing Kira back in Sacrifice of Angels will sever her ties to Odo and is totally unprepared for how Odo, socialized with humans, will respond to that information. She also completely and repeatedly miscalculates how the Cardassians will respond to her escalations of force against them, culminating in the mass mutiny in What You Leave Behind.

You can extend this to the assumption by the Founders that the Federation would be easy to manipulate and relatively weak, when, in fact, the war between the Federation and the Dominion was never actually that close, from the point of view of the Founder's objectives. The Founders lost way back in 2372 with the development of a Morphogenic virus well beyond the capacity of Dominion science to cure. The Founders, after all, show that they value nothing except for the Link - the entire Dominion is merely a protective shell for the Link. In that sense, they failed in their confrontation with the Federation almost instantly, as the Federation acquired and deployed the ability to destroy the Link very early in the war.

In short, contrary to the assertions of superiority, the decision-making the Founders show is almost always poor. The *Vorta* are often well-informed, dedicated, diligent and clever strategists, even if Weyoun has no head for operational or tactical military matters. But what we see of the Founders in decision making shows them to be myopic, both under-informed and unwilling to be counseled effectively by their (far better informed) Vorta subordinates and engaging in flat-out awful delegation.

I think this was intentional - the Dominion has been the dominant power in its own little corner of the universe for so long that the leadership long ago became calcified and ineffective. Even against a post-Borg weakened Federation, inept Klingon leadership (Gowron) and a sharply divided Alpha Quadrant, the Dominion systematically fails at all of its objectives. If it wasn't for the mercy of Odo (and the startling ineptitude of the Federation in allowing him to do that - but I'll save that for later), the Dominion would have collapsed (with the loss of the Link) as the result of an entirely elective war half the galaxy away. Poor decision-making indeed.

[Madner Kami]

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/d570.php Now out.

For those more familiar with Trek, how do independent traders work? By, that, I mean the Federation doesn't use money any more, and they literally have technology that can make anything out of thin air. I guess it means for some people who don't want to join Starfleet that they can fly a ship, but it's still a little odd to me.

What I gleaned from it is that the writers don't understand economics enough to even recognize that they need to understand something.

Pretty much this. Basically, whenever there is a limitation in some resource and a need to decide how and where that limitation is diverted, there is economics. Now, the means to decide how and where limited resources are used and diverted might be different (command economies compared to free market, for instance), but there still needs to be a division of resources and some method to decide.

Another case in Star Trek: mining. We see mining operations all the time in Star Trek, but with the ability to replicate anything, why bother? The only reason to do so would be an economic reason that makes the trouble of building infrastructure/tools, pulling minerals out of planetary bodies, and transporting then refining those minerals better than replication in-situ.

Chuck's idea of replicators storing raw materials then organizing them on a molecular basis (as opposed to making them out of pure energy) would actually give a reason for all those mining operations. They'd still need the raw resources, after all, to stuff into a replicator's resource buffer.

The other thing is, even assuming that the replicators need no prior matter, they still need energy. So any economy in a society that has this "make everything out of thin air"-technology, is still based on a limited resource. Maybe mining and refining that shit is still cheaper, in terms of energy, than replicating it. Somewhat ironically, this would actually be true in reality, since making matter out of energy, while technically possible (theory of relativity says hi), is absurdly and prohibitively costly in terms of energy-consumption. Breaking down the matter of an object the size of a tea-spoon (roughly 10 grams) into energy, results in the release of an amount of energy equal to about 400 kilotons of TNT or roughly 27 Hiroshima-bombs. Obviously, if you would want to create a tea-spoon out of energy, you would need at least that same amount of energy in the first place and then some.

The changelings really do not have a good grasp of how psychology or warfare works, do they?

I actually viewed this as intentional, to be honest. The Founders really don't have a good idea of how 'solids' (and anyone else outside the Link) work and although it causes them to repeatedly make really bad choices, the tremendous arrogance of The Link's collective self means that they basically never learn from this. Spoilers incoming:

'Sanders,' for instance, assumes that killing Kira back in Sacrifice of Angels will sever her ties to Odo and is totally unprepared for how Odo, socialized with humans, will respond to that information. She also completely and repeatedly miscalculates how the Cardassians will respond to her escalations of force against them, culminating in the mass mutiny in What You Leave Behind.

You can extend this to the assumption by the Founders that the Federation would be easy to manipulate and relatively weak, when, in fact, the war between the Federation and the Dominion was never actually that close, from the point of view of the Founder's objectives. The Founders lost way back in 2372 with the development of a Morphogenic virus well beyond the capacity of Dominion science to cure. The Founders, after all, show that they value nothing except for the Link - the entire Dominion is merely a protective shell for the Link. In that sense, they failed in their confrontation with the Federation almost instantly, as the Federation acquired and deployed the ability to destroy the Link very early in the war.

In short, contrary to the assertions of superiority, the decision-making the Founders show is almost always poor. The *Vorta* are often well-informed, dedicated, diligent and clever strategists, even if Weyoun has no head for operational or tactical military matters. But what we see of the Founders in decision making shows them to be myopic, both under-informed and unwilling to be counseled effectively by their (far better informed) Vorta subordinates and engaging in flat-out awful delegation.

I think this was intentional - the Dominion has been the dominant power in its own little corner of the universe for so long that the leadership long ago became calcified and ineffective. Even against a post-Borg weakened Federation, inept Klingon leadership (Gowron) and a sharply divided Alpha Quadrant, the Dominion systematically fails at all of its objectives. If it wasn't for the mercy of Odo (and the startling ineptitude of the Federation in allowing him to do that - but I'll save that for later), the Dominion would have collapsed (with the loss of the Link) as the result of an entirely elective war half the galaxy away. Poor decision-making indeed.

It's also easy to forget that, from the perspective of the Founders, individual lives can be replicated basically at will. A single being literally has no value to them. "What do you mean we lost 500.000 highly skilled people within a second for no benefit at all? Clone them with all their knowledge already!". What made the Dominion, from a military point of view, so dangerous in the first place isn't jsut the fact that they have high technology and lots of ships, it is, that they can replenish and enhance their manpower basically at will, thanks to their cloning technology. Now obviously, this ability does not extend to their allies, but it is easy to see that the Founders would extend the disregard for the lives of their at-will-creatable soldiers and administrators, onto their allies and at least at first, the allies would certainly be willing to accept that disregard to a certain degree, because they know of and want the power that the Dominion can provide them with.

On a slightly different note, I wanted to point out how well Casey Biggs is doing his job with Damar. In the last few episodes, the character of Damar got a whole lot of screen-time and his portrayal was spot on all the time. The speech Damar delivers at the end of the episode is right up there in the Hall of Fame of famous and perfectly delivered speeches in movie-history. That man, both the character and the actor, do not nearly recieve enough of the praise they deserve.

Also @ Chuck: You've been waiting to deliver that qib at Archer for years now. Grats for finally getting it off your chest

@Episode: This episode is also a good example of "Writers (especially SF-writers) have no sense of scale". During Damar's Resist-speech, we hear that the Cardassians have lost 7 million soldiers during the war so far. This may seem a lot at first glance, but that is a laughably small number of people given the scale this war is fought on. World War II had a casualty-bill of, give or take, 60 to 70 million people, while the Earth had a total population of about 2.3 billion at the time the conflict was fought, which equals roughly 3% of the world's population at the time. And this was a war were several sides had no regard for the lives of their soldiers at all, plus the fact that it was a war fought over the extermination of entire groups of people (russians, generally eastern europeans, chinese, jews). Even taking away the civilian loss of lives and only counting military deaths, you end up with about 20 to 25 million people dead. The Soviet Union alone lost 20 million people, with about half of them being military deaths and the SU was one of the countries that had little to no regard for the lives of their own soldiers and civilians, plus being the primary target of extermination-tactics by the germans in addition to that. The truely horrifying detail in that statistic being, that this War of Extermination wasn't even one of the bloodiest in human history, in comparison the overall population at the given time. 7 million lives lost is a laughably small amount of people, given the scale this war is fought on and given how the Dominion started treating Cardassians by that time.

[bronnt]

On a slightly different note, I wanted to point out how well Casey Biggs is doing his job with Damar. In the last few episodes, the character of Damar got a whole lot of screen-time and his portrayal was spot on all the time. The speech Damar delivers at the end of the episode is right up there in the Hall of Fame of famous and perfectly delivered speeches in movie-history. That man, both the character and the actor, do not nearly recieve enough of the praise they deserve

I pointed this is out in the last discussion thread, but yeah, Casey Biggs was great at this point in the series. The first time I watched this series I found myself actively rooting for Damar even before I learned he was going to join the side of the heroes-heck, even when he was still a drunken mess. So I practically cheered when I saw him gun down those two Jem-Hadar at the end of last episode.

@Episode: This episode is also a good example of "Writers (especially SF-writers) have no sense of scale". During Damar's Resist-speech, we hear that the Cardassians have lost 7 million soldiers during the war so far. This may seem a lot at first glance, but that is a laughably small number of people given the scale this war is fought on. World War II had a casualty-bill of, give or take, 60 to 70 million people, while the Earth had a total population of about 2.3 billion at the time the conflict was fought, which equals roughly 3% of the world's population at the time. And this was a war were several sides had no regard for the lives of their soldiers at all, plus the fact that it was a war fought over the extermination of entire groups of people (russians, generally eastern europeans, chinese, jews). Even taking away the civilian loss of lives and only counting military deaths, you end up with about 20 to 25 million people dead. The Soviet Union alone lost 20 million people, with about half of them being military deaths and the SU was one of the countries that had little to no regard for the lives of their own soldiers and civilians, plus being the primary target of extermination-tactics by the germans in addition to that. The truely horrifying detail in that statistic being, that this War of Extermination wasn't even one of the bloodiest in human history, in comparison the overall population at the given time. 7 million lives lost is a laughably small amount of people, given the scale this war is fought on and given how the Dominion started treating Cardassians by that time.

That's a shocking number for them to have quoted. The Cardassian Union wasn't as big as the Romulan Empire, but it was still at least dozens of planets, including fully industrial worlds and several colony worlds, stretching even into the former DMZ. I can't estimate a minimum population lower than 50 billion, and realistically, twice or 3 times that would still be realistic.