DS9: The Changing Face of Evil

[Steve]

That's a limitation in many sci-fi works. The writers squib numbers from WWII or other terrestrial conflicts, maybe with an occasional doubling or tripling because "this is in space", not realizing that the numbers should be an actual order of magnitude higher or more.

[Naldiin]

It's also easy to forget that, from the perspective of the Founders, individual lives can be replicated basically at will. A single being literally has no value to them. "What do you mean we lost 500.000 highly skilled people within a second for no benefit at all? Clone them with all their knowledge already!". What made the Dominion, from a military point of view, so dangerous in the first place isn't jsut the fact that they have high technology and lots of ships, it is, that they can replenish and enhance their manpower basically at will, thanks to their cloning technology. Now obviously, this ability does not extend to their allies, but it is easy to see that the Founders would extend the disregard for the lives of their at-will-creatable soldiers and administrators, onto their allies and at least at first, the allies would certainly be willing to accept that disregard to a certain degree, because they know of and want the power that the Dominion can provide them with.

I think this is right - to a point. But probably not a point that covers the doctors. Specifically, I think the series strongly suggests that while the Dominion can clone formal learning, it cannot clone informal learning, expertise or experience - Sanders is replacing a team of experienced doctors with a batch of green fresh-out-of-med-school doctors. That the result is no cure should surprise no one.

So we know that the Dominion can clone endless Vorta and Jem'Hadar, and that the new clones have some of the knowledge and abilities of the old ones. But it certainly does appear that the Dominion cannot infinitely clone expertise. In "The Abandoned" we get a sense of just what knowledge is and is not imparted via the cloning process, at least for Jem'Hadar, and while it seems like it's a decent 'head-start,' it's pretty clear that the Dominion cannot - or chooses not to - bake in a life-time of experience into the cloning process. That fits with what we see of the Jem'Hadar elsewhere - formidable, but far from undefeatable.

The implication, I think, is that the Dominion is capable of mass-producing relatively green soldiers fresh out of boot-camp, but *not* capable of mass-producing the equivalent of veteran soldiers with years of combat experience. The Jem'Hadar tend to die young, meaning that relatively few of them acquire extensive combat experience or expertise. And that fits with what we see in combat - while formidable, the Jem'Hadar aren't a match for Worf's decades of combat experience, and in ship-to-ship combat, they tend to fair poorly against more experienced tactical officers and commanders on the Federation side. In addition, the knowledge imparted is very specific - the Jem'Hadar are pretty bad at sophisticated engineering or technical tasks (see: One Little Ship; Rocks and Shoals), despite apparently having these tasks as primary jobs.

And we pretty much know, throughout the series, that Federation medicine, science and engineering are better than their Dominion equivalents - Keevan essentially says as much about engineering in Rocks and Shoals, when he confidently (and correctly) attributes near miraculous abilities to Federation doctors and engineers. And I don't think we can chalk this up to "Keevan's clone super-engineer died" because of 'One Little Ship' where we see that, in an entire large boarding and capture operation, literally no member of the Jem'hadar team set to the task is capable of understanding the Defiant crew's sabotage.

I would suggest that the cloning process seems to be able to reproduce the knowledge gained through 'formal learning,' but does *not* seem to include baked-in life experiences. That explains why the different numbered Weyouns turn out differently - esp. Weyoun 6 (Treachery, Faith and the Great River), but note also that Weyoun 7 declares deep admiration for Weyoun 5, which would be a very odd statement for the self-effacing Weyoun unless, of course, Weyoun was recognizing that by dint of his accomplishments and experiences, Weyoun 5 was distinct from the general Weyoun line. It's also hard not to notice that the longest active Weyoun (Weyoun 5) appears, by far, to be the most capable, while Weyoun 7 and 8 make lots of very bad mistakes (mostly pushing the Cardassians to revolt), perhaps out of inexperience.


What that means is that *bodies* are cheap for the Dominion, but expertise is not, which underlines the mistake Sanders is probably making. The documentation of findings, in the end, is likely to contain far less practical knowledge than the combined memories and experiences of the doctors in question. The mere need to *document findings* suggests that this expertise will be lost in order to 'motivate' doctors that, as Weyoun noted, are already clearly highly motivated. Sanders is basically pissing away that knowledge in a fit of pique.

That the Founders fail to consider the value of life experience isn't a surprise - because for the most part, they no long experience that in a meaningful way. Compared to the evidently vast knowledge of the Link, the experience gained for the short time a Founder is separated from the Link must seem truly minor and meaningless. That's combined, of course, by the strong implication that there are no longer any engineers, doctors, strategists or such among the Founders - they no longer hold that expertise as useful or valuable. Sanders is, you will note, even less capable than Weyoun at understanding Dukat's (fairly basic) strategy. She clearly has functionally zero knowledge - and why should she? She has Vorta for that.

But it's not surprising that a being which gains most of their knowledge through gestalt consciousness does not value learned experience. At the same time, judging from the doctors, academics, engineers and other specialists I've known, learned experience is often far more valuable than the (entirely necessary) bedrock of formal learning. That Sanders would fail to understand this underlines one thing we do know for sure about the Founders, which is that they have not bothered and do not consider it important to learn about 'solids' or really understand their function.

In short: Sanders assumes that the new Vorta will be just as good and just as extendible as the old Vorta, but she is, quite literally, dead wrong.

[Madner Kami]

What that means is that *bodies* are cheap for the Dominion, but expertise is not, which underlines the mistake Sanders is probably making. The documentation of findings, in the end, is likely to contain far less practical knowledge than the combined memories and experiences of the doctors in question. The mere need to *document findings* suggests that this expertise will be lost in order to 'motivate' doctors that, as Weyoun noted, are already clearly highly motivated. Sanders is basically pissing away that knowledge in a fit of pique.

That the Founders fail to consider the value of life experience isn't a surprise - because for the most part, they no long experience that in a meaningful way. Compared to the evidently vast knowledge of the Link, the experience gained for the short time a Founder is separated from the Link must seem truly minor and meaningless. That's combined, of course, by the strong implication that there are no longer any engineers, doctors, strategists or such among the Founders - they no longer hold that expertise as useful or valuable. Sanders is, you will note, even less capable than Weyoun at understanding Dukat's (fairly basic) strategy. She clearly has functionally zero knowledge - and why should she? She has Vorta for that.

But it's not surprising that a being which gains most of their knowledge through gestalt consciousness does not value learned experience. At the same time, judging from the doctors, academics, engineers and other specialists I've known, learned experience is often far more valuable than the (entirely necessary) bedrock of formal learning. That Sanders would fail to understand this underlines one thing we do know for sure about the Founders, which is that they have not bothered and do not consider it important to learn about 'solids' or really understand their function.

In short: Sanders assumes that the new Vorta will be just as good and just as extendible as the old Vorta, but she is, quite literally, dead wrong.

I absolutely agree and didn't want to imply that they are capable of replicating exact memory. From the Founder's perspective it is clear, that they seem to think that everything that is there to know, is already known. This is shown, for example, by their complete surprise that the Federation actually managed to tech their way around the Dominion's initially superior technology (e.g. effective shields, ability to block through-shield transportation and even seemingly being able to block the Jem'Hadar's ability to walk through force fields) in a relatively short amount of time. They know what the Federation is at that point in time. They have already infiltrated Starfleet when the Odyssey gets blown up. The thought that a Federation made out of 100s of planets might be capable of finding a solution to those problems didn't even occure to them? How could that not even cross their mind?

This, however, makes the fact that they send out Baby-Odos all the more perplexing. Don't any of those Odo-"probes" ever make it back? Do they come back, integrate and then are disregarded? Is it possible, that the Dominion would be so absurdly isolationist, that maybe, just maybe their defensive perimeters manage to eliminate any Changelings that try to make it back to the great link without the Founders even knowing about it, because the Jem'Hadar just blow them up when they try to approach their Homeworld? Do the Changelings take the fact that no Odo-"probes" ever make it back as proof how hostile the solids are to them? The Changeling-society is so hilariously broken and out of touch with reality, that this wouldn't even surprise me.

[Durandal_1707]

Wouldn't most of the Hundred still be heading out toward their destinations? The process was only sped up with Odo (and, presumably, Laas) because they accidentally drifted into the wormhole.

[CrypticMirror]

I think Chuck does read the Federation a little wrong, as does most of the Alpha Quadrant powers and the Dominion, when it comes to things like border skirmishes and the willingness to negotiate on equal terms with powers that have engaged them militarily but have much weaker military forces (like the Cardassians). It is not because the Federation is weak, or they are scared, or anything like that. It is they are like the Doctor from Doctor Who's "Family of Blood"; they are being kind. They dislike war, not because they fear being hurt but because they fear the hurt they can cause others if they truly desire it. Think about it, the key founding members of the Federation, Earth, Vulcan, Andorians, they all had massive genocides and massive world ending wars in their history. They do not want to turn back down that path, nor do they want to inflict that pain on others. They'll bend over backwards to find another way, even take a few punches to the metaphorical face along the way, and a few blows to their dignity, if it means avoiding hurting others. Being in the Federation means that taking the moral high ground is worth sacrificing your life for if necessary. But even the Kindness of the Federation has limits, either via the machinations of Section 31 or the eventual mobilization of the Starfleet if they are pushed too far. As Quark once pointed out, we're very good at being bad. And if we are scared of anything, it is that we are scared of just how bad we can all be.

[Robovski]

Wouldn't most of the Hundred still be heading out toward their destinations? The process was only sped up with Odo (and, presumably, Laas) because they accidentally drifted into the wormhole.

Odo is the first back because of the wormhole, the rest aren't expected for ''centuries''. And while they have linked with Odo, they clearly didn't assimilate his knowledge and understanding of life in the Alpha quadrant and the Federation in particular. Maybe this is because Odo is still a free individual and not part of the assimilated whole?

[CareerKnight]

Odo is the first back because of the wormhole, the rest aren't expected for ''centuries''. And while they have linked with Odo, they clearly didn't assimilate his knowledge and understanding of live in the Alpha quadrant and the Federation in particular. Maybe this is because Odo is still a free individual and not part of the assimilated whole?

Odo seems to be fairly unique in that he initially has only brief contact with the Great Link. Chuck described the Link as an extreme example of group think. When Changelings return to the link for the first time they are basically overwhelmed by the group's opinion and way of thinking so any new insights they might have on solids are quickly reinterpreted and made to fit the biases the group already has. The fact that Odo got experience with the link and learned about its flaws before rejoining them means he is probably the first Changeling in hundreds of years to have a shot at changing their minds.

@Episode: This episode is also a good example of "Writers (especially SF-writers) have no sense of scale". During Damar's Resist-speech, we hear that the Cardassians have lost 7 million soldiers during the war so far. This may seem a lot at first glance, but that is a laughably small number of people given the scale this war is fought on.

Given that the Jem'hadar likely do the bulk of the offensive ground fighting (they breed like mad so they make great shock troops), meaning most of the Cardassian loses were from garrisons and ships destroyed, and that the front had been in federation territory from a good chuck of the war, 7 million probably isn't as unreasonable as it appears at first glance especially since we have no idea if that includes civilian loses. Still on the low side but not impossibly so. People like to bring up how many people Russia lost in WW2 but for all their bluster Cardassia isn't as vital or powerful as Russia was in WW2. Not counting the land and resources they gave to the Dominion to keep rebuilding their warmachine, their military contribution to the war is probably more along the lines of Italy or the United Kingdom (both of whom total deaths were less than 500,000 each, despite Italy being invaded). If you want to be really generous and compare them to Japan, they only lost slightly over 2 million military with that number creeping up to around 3 million when civilians are included.

[bronnt]

Odo is the first back because of the wormhole, the rest aren't expected for ''centuries''. And while they have linked with Odo, they clearly didn't assimilate his knowledge and understanding of life in the Alpha quadrant and the Federation in particular. Maybe this is because Odo is still a free individual and not part of the assimilated whole?

They probably overgeneralized and couldn't recognize nuance. Keep in mind that a very large chunk of Odo's lifespan was on Terek Nor while occupied by the Cardassians. Those memories probably fit in nicely with the prevailing Changeling attitude of solids. Brutality, conflict, and terrorism.

[Archanubis]

The changelings really do not have a good grasp of how psychology or warfare works, do they? They could have almost won there war right there, but wasted their Breen advantage by first letting them use up perfectly good resources and trained people on a suicide run that while would have a limited shock value only provides to let the Alliance know what is going on, then when they have the battle hardened core of the Alliance forces at their mercy they let them go back with not only a fair degree of intelligence and data on what happened, but also now have a need for revenge. Again, while there might be limited shock value in that, it would be far more damaging to the Alliance cause to deprive them of trained personnel and the scientific data they carried away with them. The Breen advantage was wasted on big statement pieces rather than actual military advantage.

I do sometimes wonder if this type of "terror tactic" is one that has worked for the Dominion in the past, at least on their side of the galaxy. It only stopped working when they came in contact with the races and powers of the Alpha Quadrant, but they kept trying because it was the only way they knew. And as others have said, the insulated nature of the changelings probably didn't help, especially as their only regular contact with "solids" are a couple of genetically altered and engineered races that are bred to by sycophants (the Vorta overtly, the Jem'Hadar more by action than words).

[Nezumi]

For the "Anjo on my knee" gag, all I've got to say is:

"For De Mille, young fur–henchmen can’t be rowing."