Japan needs babies.

[AlucardNoir]

That’s more to unpack than I can address on a lunch break, so for the moment I’m going to ask about a core assumption you have there that’s doing a lot of heavy lifting:

Why can’t immigrants assimilate.

You mean beside the skin color response you want me to give you so badly?

Some because they don't want to - as showcased by the continued existence of Chinatowns across the US. Chinatowns that by now keep alive a culture that has all but been extinguished in China itself ironically.

Some because it's the easy answer. When you go to a land inhabited by a peoples whose language you don't speak, who's culture you don't share, and you're not alone, what happens? you stick to your own people. You form a ghetto. You open a church, temple or mosque for your own religion, you keep to your own people, you speak your own language, you treat the people in whose land you now live as the "other" and they do the same to you - and as we all know that has never resulted in any kind of bloodshed, or mass murders or genocides...

Sometimes people do asimilate, unfortunately, I'm going to guess the following is not the kind of assimilation you'd champion: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-431948/Yorkshireman-share-DNA-African-tribes.html

Here's the truth, a few people can assimilate completely in a given society, especially if they're immigrating with the express purpose of assimilating into the local populace. What is happening now to Europe, to the US... migration at that level will not result in assimilation. Mass migration doesn't result in assimilation, especially not when there's a fertility differential between the incoming population and the native inhabitants. What happens is a population shift. It's a cultural replacement.

And when two cultures occupy the same space, well, we've all seen what happens. If Japan does the same mistake Europe and the US have done the result will be the same for their culture. And that won't be it's celebration or it's advancement. Unless your particular definition of advancement includes into the history books as a footnote.

[TGLS]

That’s more to unpack than I can address on a lunch break, so for the moment I’m going to ask about a core assumption you have there that’s doing a lot of heavy lifting:

Why can’t immigrants assimilate.

You mean beside the skin color response you want me to give you so badly?

Is that on the table? Saying something like that and not even following it up with "No, I'm not a bigot" isn't a good look.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

That’s more to unpack than I can address on a lunch break, so for the moment I’m going to ask about a core assumption you have there that’s doing a lot of heavy lifting:

Why can’t immigrants assimilate.

You mean beside the skin color response you want me to give you so badly?

Is that on the table? Saying something like that and not even following it up with "No, I'm not a bigot" isn't a good look.

Sounds like they're trying to just call out bait.

[AlucardNoir]

That’s more to unpack than I can address on a lunch break, so for the moment I’m going to ask about a core assumption you have there that’s doing a lot of heavy lifting:

Why can’t immigrants assimilate.

You mean beside the skin color response you want me to give you so badly?

Is that on the table? Saying something like that and not even following it up with "No, I'm not a bigot" isn't a good look.

Why would I follow it with that? Race, as in skin color, hair color, eye color, facial features are part of a populations genetic heritage. And it's not like it's only "us whites" who think so. Just look at the Blood quantum laws - despite the fact that they were enacted initially by racist white men from the thirteen colonies they are still used by several actual Native American Tribes in the US today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws

The Irish are famous for their red hair and green eyes. The Germans, Norwegians, Scandinavians and Fins for their blond hair and blue eyes. The many African pygmy tribes are famous for their short stature - and the way other African tribes have historically treated them... and there comes that different ethnicity mixing and tragedy following not far behind.

Things like skin color, hair color, eye color, facial features are traits of local group as much as the language they speak, the gods they pray to and the traditions that they fallow.

What would be bigoted would be to assume that such distinctions don't exist or that they are not a part of the shared culture of a peoples. If you had actually read my post and followed the link I posted you would have seen/read the story of a white Englishman that discovered he was descended from a West African from around the time of the Romans. We're talking here about a nearly 2000 year old genetic legacy that on the outside had left no traces. Race is not genetically, it's skin deep. Culture is also not genetically, it's just a set of taught behaviors, the same for language, architecture, etc. etc. But all those behaviors and those outside appearances are what makes a group different from every other group. Even among Europeans, even among groups that shared the same hair and eye color, you had different dress, different culinary practices, different languages, different architectural styles. Culture does not revolve around ones outwardly appearance, but that does matter. This is one thing the Japanese got really right. It doesn't matter how well you speak the language, how well you know the customs and traditions, if you weren't born Japanese you will never be Japanese. A foreigner is always a foreigner... given time and intermixing his descendants need not be, but he/she will always be one.

So yes, yes skin color is on the table, as are hair and eye color, as is average height, as are facial features and any other outwardly feature you might think of. You don't need to practice eugenics to observe that people have historically gravitated towards people that looked like them and that they still do that to this very day and will probably continue to do so for as long as there will be people. Seriously, baring a totalitarian state that practices eugenics to eliminate all outwardly differences between people, and a state mandated school curriculum that seeks to imbue all young people with the exact same values, language and culture you're always going to have people that look like one another group together, and among them, people that use the same language group together, and among them people that share a common culture or religion, and among them people that agree on certain worldviews and so on and so forth.

Sorry, but for most of the Old World, be it Europe, Africa or Asia, ones outwardly appearance is grouped with ones ethnicity and culture. And to be fair... it also matters in the New World, especially for modern "progressives" that ask for segregation of collage campuses or champion such magnificent things as the mythical monolithic "black culture". Actual white supremacist couldn't have asked for better allies. But hey, what do I know, in your own words I have to either be a bigot that believes skin color has something to do with ethnicity and culture or not, and since I do...

[LittleRaven]

Why can’t immigrants assimilate.

They obviously can, and do, in vast numbers. But only if they are given the proper tools, and the proper amount of time. America has mastered this - Europe has not.

Some because they don't want to - as showcased by the continued existence of Chinatowns across the US. Chinatowns that by now keep alive a culture that has all but been extinguished in China itself ironically.

I'm sorry, but this is simply false. There are no real 'Chinatowns' anymore. There are tourist traps that CALL themselves Chinatown, but they are no longer filled with ethnic Chinese that struggle to interact with the larger United States and prefer to keep to themselves - they are filled with American citizens of Asian descent who all speak perfect English and vote in every election. The Chinatowns have gone the same way as the Little Italys and Irish Ghettos that preceded them - the original inhabitants have died, and their children have become Americans. You will still find enclaves of new immigrants who band together, although these days such enclaves are much more likely to consist of Guatemalans than Chinese, but such enclaves never last more than a generation or two, because we have a secret sauce that pretty much insures that they cannot survive. Even the Jews, a people who have prided themselves on staying apart from their neighbors for thousands of years, find themselves struggling against this most potent weapon in the American arsenal, a fact which causes constant consternation for conservative Rabbis. That weapon is birthright citizenship, and it is one the wisest decisions our founders ever made. It is also something that Europe almost universally rejects, which is why they struggle to assimilate people in a way that Americans simply do not.

What is happening now to Europe, to the US... migration at that level will not result in assimilation.

In Europe, this may be true. For a variety of reasons, new groups struggle to integrate across much of the Old World. Things persist across generations in a way that is very foreign to my American eyes. But on our side of the pond, things will work out just fine in terms of long-term assimilation - our problem is going to be the short-term humanitarian crisis that such massive numbers of people with nothing inevitably generate. America has lots of problems, but taking in new groups of people and turning them into Americans is one thing we do very, VERY well.

[AlucardNoir]

You know what? I'm tired of this conversation so I'll end my part in it with the following: Japan shouldn't open it's borders to mass migration for the same reason London is no longer English.

And for those of the "rece doesn't matter" bend, for those that refuse to acknowledge the truth that people will always gravitate towards people that look like them, let me ask you just one (set of interrelated) question(s):

If I was to take a French city and remove the French Catholic from the city and fill it with Lutheran Germans would that city still be French? it would still be in France so it would be French in the strictest sense of the word. BUT, would it culturally and ethnically be French, if the cities population would be German? Could a city where the majority of the population speaks German ever be peacefully assimilated by a culture that speaks French? Would the Germans ever learn a new language if they din't actually have to? Everyone in the city speaks German, why learn a new language? Everyone in the city is Lutheran, why convert? Everyone in the city has the same traditions, why alter them? The city would historically still be French, but would it still be French after such a large shift to a new culture that was not given any reason to asimilate with the countries main culture? And keep in mind, both the Germans and the French are white, so we don't have the race problem of "London is no longer English" here, just [HA] an ethnic one.

My answer is NO. If your opinion differs... well, I'd say I'm very interested to know why it differs but I have no interest in coming back to this particular thread.

[Admiral X]

Why would I follow it with that? Race, as in skin color, hair color, eye color, facial features are part of a populations genetic heritage. And it's not like it's only "us whites" who think so. Just look at the Blood quantum laws - despite the fact that they were enacted initially by racist white men from the thirteen colonies they are still used by several actual Native American Tribes in the US today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws

Indeed, and over time some of them have changed it back and forth. For example, with my tribe the minimum is now 1/4 blood, and it was also previously that for some time before the 1980's. However, for some time there in the '80s, they raised it to 1/2.

The Irish are famous for their red hair and green eyes. The Germans, Norwegians, Scandinavians and Fins for their blond hair and blue eyes. The many African pygmy tribes are famous for their short stature - and the way other African tribes have historically treated them... and there comes that different ethnicity mixing and tragedy following not far behind.

Things like skin color, hair color, eye color, facial features are traits of local group as much as the language they speak, the gods they pray to and the traditions that they fallow.

Actually the thing that continues to stun me in how utterly racist it is, is that the people championing mass immigration from the Middle East often lump all Europeans together (wonder if they'd do that to Native American tribes, too), and insist that none of them actually have a culture, completely ignoring all evidence to the contrary. I think even the current French President claimed that about his own people.

Sorry, but for most of the Old World, be it Europe, Africa or Asia, ones outwardly appearance is grouped with ones ethnicity and culture. And to be fair... it also matters in the New World, especially for modern "progressives" that ask for segregation of collage campuses or champion such magnificent things as the mythical monolithic "black culture". Actual white supremacist couldn't have asked for better allies. But hey, what do I know, in your own words I have to either be a bigot that believes skin color has something to do with ethnicity and culture or not, and since I do...

It makes me sad that people fought so hard for so long to get rid of racial segregation only for the regressives to manage to being it back by claiming it's an example of "social justice."

[LittleRaven]

If I was to take a French city and remove the French Catholic from the city and fill it with Lutheran Germans would that city still be French?

I don't know - I'm American, not French. And while I maintain that France, not the UK, is our closest sibling across the Pond, there's still a lot of daylight between us. I'll be curious what the Europeans on this forum have to say, though.

But I can tell you, with a great deal of certainty, what would happen if you teleported a small German city into the middle of, say, Michigan.

The first 20 years would be a little rough. Lots of Germans speak English and honestly a lot of Americans know at least a little German so the language barrier will be minimal, but American culture is VERY different from German culture so we would expect a little shock there. The town would probably get a reputation as being a very insular place - a tight knit community that sticks to its own whenever possible, and is at best wary of outsiders.

But the following decade would see a lot of big changes. All the children born in this town are American citizens, so they can't really be contained - they can and will travel where-ever they want within our vast country. They'll join the US military, go to US colleges, meet lots of other citizens from all over and have sex with them. Some of them will get married, many will leave the city altogether, but many others will stay or return, sometimes even bringing their new spouses and friends back with them. And as they take over the reigns from their parents, they will recognize the new opportunities they have.

The city will still present as "German." In fact, it will rapidly become more German than it ever was in Germany. Streets will have German names, umlauts will be mandatory, and good luck finding a bathroom, there's only Badezimmer in THIS town. Microbreweries specializing in authentic German brews will spring up. At least 2 companies of German sausage makers will proudly call the city home. It will host an enormous Oktoberfest party every year that will attract revelers from across the state, who come to stay in a motel with a German name and drive their BMW motorcyles around the freeway loop, deemed "the little Autobahn" by the city council. Germany flags will hang from every doorway....right alongside the American ones.

Because make no mistake, these people are now Americans. They'll still be Lutheran. They'll still like German(ish) food. They'll still speak German. (well, at little anyway) They will take great pride in their German heritage. But they will also be Democrats and Republicans. They'll cheer for the Wolverines. They will gleefully slaughter Nazis (real Nazis, with real Swastikas) in video games, and will find the idea that the government should decide which ideas are appropriate for public discourse very odd indeed.

I know this because we've seen this exact scenario play out in this country, over and over again, with one group of people after another, and it always goes the same way. People cannot keep themselves apart, because birthright citizenship ensures that the power of the state cannot be leveraged in order to force that outcome, as we so often see in other countries. It's really quite a fantastic tool - I'm honestly puzzled as to why Europe hasn't adopted it. I don't blame Europeans for rejecting a lot of American ideals, even if I happen to like them, but birthright citizens seems like a surefire winner that is almost all upside.

Not very popular worldwide, though.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I thought I remember Chinatown in Hawaii having some shops where people didn't seem to speak perfect fluent english.

[LittleRaven]

I thought I remember Chinatown in Hawaii having some shops where people didn't seem to speak perfect fluent english.

Well, I'm sure there are some. It's not like immigration has ever stopped, and I'm sure some of those people end up in Chinatown shops. But my point is that you're just as likely to encounter one of these people working at Amazon in Seattle as you are in any of the various "Chinatowns" around the country.