Ranting about Babylon 5's "Sic Transit Vir" (spoilers)

[CharlesPhipps]

And you've said some pretty awful stuff on that front. So I don't buy it.

Yes, I am a flawed person. I also believe that it is important that we do not confuse the good for the bad and while we forgive the bad, do not condone it or pretend it was justified.

[Yukaphile]

Bwahahahahaha. Yeah, right. With your logic on words you've said in the past, while I'm more centrist and think Trump is hardly the worst President we've had (he ain't the best, far from it, but I think Bush was worse) and that I'm actively refusing to vote, get organized, and help beat him because I've given up on the world, that makes me collectively guilty, in a very Kira-like "you are a collaborator if you are not helping us" mindset. Especially when I'd help out if I could. I don't have the power or the money. But I refuse to just be a droplet in the tidal wave of changing forces. I want real contributions that change how people feel, not just lines on a map that change over hundreds of years. The enemies today will be the allies tomorrow. And it's pointless to try and stop that.

[Fianna]

I don't really see the issue. The comedy is at Vir's expense, after all, as he applies stock love clichés to such an inappropriate situation.

No, he doesn't respond to her with the full horror we'd expect given her statements and actions, but he wouldn't be able to function in Centauri society if he didn't tolerate and accept a great deal of anti-Narn racism, the same way that devout vegans and animal rights activists in our society have to accept and tolerate that most of the people around them will have animals killed so they can eat their flesh and wear their hides. That Vir's love connection was particularly extreme in her attitudes is like a vegan having a blind date with someone who's a professional bullfighter; it makes them incompatible, but it doesn't make either party monstrous by their culture's standards.

[Yukaphile]

Actually, when put that way, it makes it seem inconsistent to how he treats Mr. Morden past "she's a hot woman" mentality.

[CharlesPhipps]

Bwahahahahaha. Yeah, right. With your logic on words you've said in the past, while I'm more centrist and think Trump is hardly the worst President we've had (he ain't the best, far from it, but I think Bush was worse) and that I'm actively refusing to vote, get organized, and help beat him because I've given up on the world, that makes me collectively guilty, in a very Kira-like "you are a collaborator if you are not helping us" mindset. Especially when I'd help out if I could. I don't have the power or the money. But I refuse to just be a droplet in the tidal wave of changing forces. I want real contributions that change how people feel, not just lines on a map that change over hundreds of years. The enemies today will be the allies tomorrow. And it's pointless to try and stop that.

I think Trump isn't the worst President in my lifetime. That remains George W. Bush for the catastrophic destabilization of the Middle East. I think he's a repulsive person and a racist but he hasn't started any wars.

But bluntly, what a person says on the internet doesn't define them. It's what they do in RL.

[Yukaphile]

Fine then, whatever. It's the whole point. I don't vote, I used to be, but now I don't. And I've given up on changing the world.

[CharlesPhipps]

I don't really see the issue. The comedy is at Vir's expense, after all, as he applies stock love clichés to such an inappropriate situation.

No, he doesn't respond to her with the full horror we'd expect given her statements and actions, but he wouldn't be able to function in Centauri society if he didn't tolerate and accept a great deal of anti-Narn racism, the same way that devout vegans and animal rights activists in our society have to accept and tolerate that most of the people around them will have animals killed so they can eat their flesh and wear their hides. That Vir's love connection was particularly extreme in her attitudes is like a vegan having a blind date with someone who's a professional bullfighter; it makes them incompatible, but it doesn't make either party monstrous by their culture's standards.

A serious interpretation of what I think was meant to be humorous is the fact that Vir is actually playing the Schindler game here and being very polite as well as gracious to people he's working against because if he doesn't, well, then he'll be frozen out of the power structure and more Narns will die.

His ability to help others depends on him being a harmless soft-hearted eccentric.

Not a dangerous radical.

[Yukaphile]

That doesn't work. I never got the impression Vir would be really thrown into a camp or something if he didn't do exactly as told.

[Yukaphile]

I also find your words a bit disturbing, Beastro. I've said over and over how I'm a twisted freak, yet I've always resisted the urge to do anything what you'd call "evil" and I think would be evil, despite how easy it is. We all have absolute autonomy over ourselves. The world is what we make of it, yet we can't do better in hundreds of thousands of years.

[CharlesPhipps]

Fine then, whatever. It's the whole point. I don't vote, I used to be, but now I don't. And I've given up on changing the world.

Eh, each person's actions change the world. Good deeds start from the smallest and build.

That doesn't work. I never got the impression Vir would be really thrown into a camp or something if he didn't do exactly as told.

It doesn't have to be so extreme. If Vir was fired, that's by itself enough to end his career as a bureaucratic hero.