Justin "Blackface" Trudeau - Thoughts?

[Yukaphile]

I never got the hatred against blackface in the modern era. I'm sure you could apply it better to the early 20th century, when racial attitudes, despite not being solved today, were FAR worse. That said, if a black person objects, that's one thing. But some among those raised in a "more tolerant" climate than their relatives back then did might not see it that way. That said, I guess it's a reminder to them about the struggles they face but nevertheless, they can take this too far. I never had a problem with Mr. Popo or Jinx from anime. That's just Japanese culture. I don't think there's a hateful undercurrent like there is here. Could be wrong, though.

[Karha of Honor]

Was blackface acceptable 20 years ago?

Did you watch David Simon's Treme?

Personally (as a Canadian who follows politics a little) I always found it strange that Trudeau was considered the king of wokeness, he always struck me as a lightweight with some savy but without much depth of principle or ambition.

That is wokeness if certain laws change and corporate culture tells them to fuck off they won't be in the woods gathering forces doing partisan attacks like Libertarians, Gun Advocates. Anti War people...

Relax in the metaphorical sense.

they will be gone, pretending it never happened.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I never got the hatred against blackface in the modern era. I'm sure you could apply it better to the early 20th century, when racial attitudes, despite not being solved today, were FAR worse. That said, if a black person objects, that's one thing. But some among those raised in a "more tolerant" climate than their relatives back then did might not see it that way. That said, I guess it's a reminder to them about the struggles they face but nevertheless, they can take this too far. I never had a problem with Mr. Popo or Jinx from anime. That's just Japanese culture. I don't think there's a hateful undercurrent like there is here. Could be wrong, though.

It's handled with zero tolerance. It's not a sanctioned act, but Megyn Kelly did get fired just for how her words were construed.

[AllanO]

Was blackface acceptable 20 years ago?

I would have said no (I was in university at the time). Someone pointed out in today's paper that in a 1965 sitcom the Dick van Dyke show there was an episode "Show of Hands", where the protagonists accidentally dye their hands black and then have to spend the evening wearing gloves etc. as they are going to a dinner for the committee for interracial understanding. So the sense that it can come off as racist is pretty clear. Although that was in the US...

Some have suggested Quebec (where Trudeau is from) has a more accepting attitude toward the practice, you can find people who went to the events Trudeau were at you did not have a problem with it. I mean public attitude is a tricky thing, lots of people believe lots of things...

I never got the hatred against blackface in the modern era. I'm sure you could apply it better to the early 20th century, when racial attitudes, despite not being solved today, were FAR worse.

I think it makes sense that minstrel shows and other racial caricatures are offensive to people to this day these days, I know I find that sort of thing cringe inducing reflexively like "no human being acts like that" "this is just sad" etc. The fact that it may not have the same role reinforcing existing stereotypes and oppression now as it did in the post-civil war south, hardly reduces that sense of it just being stupid, crude and wrong. I would say that applies to a lesser extent to some of the ways that Japanese manga art often depicts black people, seeing it to me evokes insulting presumptions about their mental and physical attributes (likewise if a western artist depicts Japanese people in the style of a WWII bucktoothed slant eyed buffoon I infer certain presumptions). The sort of lumping in any art or practice that suggests minstrel shows or the like up to and including wearing any significant skin darkener etc. is strictly speaking overreach, but such is human associative psychology. Also, it is really easy not to do things like put on blackface (you would have thought). Did it matter if they pallette swapped Jinx to make it more purple or whatever?

That is wokeness if certain laws change and corporate culture tells them to fuck off they won't be in the woods gathering forces doing partisan attacks like Libertarians, Gun Advocates. Anti War people...

Relax in the metaphorical sense.

they will be gone, pretending it never happened.

Personally I am glad few in our society have gone full Che Guevra and will not be mounting guerrilla actions in the chilly rain forests of the lower mainland of BC. My point was just that Trudeau never struck me as a principled enough leftist to garner the title of King of Wokeness, there are lots of people who are well to the left of him, even in terms of pure talk he did not stake out that radical a position to my mind. But if wokeness is all about style over substance then I guess maybe?

Are you saying that Libertarians, gun advocates, anti-war people are also mostly big talk over actually doing anything because I don't really see any significant threat of them going commando on us either? Is all politics as shallow as Wokeness in your estimate? I just want to make sure I get your point...

[Yukaphile]

Well, I've never gone to a minstrel show. My only experience is anime. And incessant fan bitching should not have forced them to decolor Jynx and censor Mr. Popo in some places. Stuff like that black woman stereotype I could understand from Gen V. But Jynx? Come on...

[Mecha82]

Both Jynx and Mr. Popo are creations of culture that doesn't understand or know about minstrel shows and historical meaning of blackface while Jynx is clearly based on something from they folk lore and wasn't even meant to be taken that way. It's just that they were not aware that it would be taken in west way it was when both characters were created. So this is case of difference in culture and history considering that black men have never been common in Japan with there being one black man in Japanese history who was former slave who had become loyal samurai.

[Darth Wedgius]

I think intent should play a role. Robert Downey Jr. was in blackface for "Tropic Thunder" but the intent obviously wasn't to make fun of black people. If you're in an Arabian Nights party and looking more swarthy than usual, it's not necessarily to make fun of arabs. Though among certain people that will still get you into trouble on "cultural appropriation" grounds, and I'm a little surprised Trudeau hasn't been called out on that.

That someone's feelings are hurt just isn't enough for me to think something is a problem. Someone objected to a picture of coal miners in a restaurant because of "blackface" (i.e., coal dust on their faces because they'd been sweating and mining all day).

[AllanO]

Both Jynx and Mr. Popo are creations of culture that doesn't understand or know about minstrel shows and historical meaning of blackface while Jynx is clearly based on something from they folk lore and wasn't even meant to be taken that way.

Even where the resemblance is pure coincidence. It does not matter when you are presenting it in a situation where the association is going to get made because of the resemblance, I am sure plenty of people with names that are hilarious in English come from linguistic groups where there name does not mean anything and it is a coincidence (heck even people in an English context can end up with names that have a pretty lewd or ridiculous meaning apparently by accident), you are still going to be circumspect about using those names even though the association is just a coincidence. I would probably be very careful about how I say the name Phat Ho for example. Unfortunately that is the way symbolic and coded meaning work, just because two words sound sufficiently similar or two symbols look enough alike that does mean they get associated because that is how we get meaning from words or symbols, etc. we tell what they are by what they look or sound like...

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I never got the hatred against blackface in the modern era. I'm sure you could apply it better to the early 20th century, when racial attitudes, despite not being solved today, were FAR worse.

...The sort of lumping in any art or practice that suggests minstrel shows or the like up to and including wearing any significant skin darkener etc. is strictly speaking overreach, but such is human associative psychology.

Yes but there's still a discrepancy there that is considered nonexistent. As far as I can tell, it is always addressed as if those people are practically engaging in the practice of the 1920's entertainment industry when the context doesn't quite feel like it adds up to that.

[Karha of Honor]

I think intent should play a role. Robert Downey Jr. was in blackface for "Tropic Thunder" but the intent obviously wasn't to make fun of black people. If you're in an Arabian Nights party and looking more swarthy than usual, it's not necessarily to make fun of arabs. Though among certain people that will still get you into trouble on "cultural appropriation" grounds, and I'm a little surprised Trudeau hasn't been called out on that.

That someone's feelings are hurt just isn't enough for me to think something is a problem. Someone objected to a picture of coal miners in a restaurant because of "blackface" (i.e., coal dust on their faces because they'd been sweating and mining all day).

Yo, Wedge could you explain Allan what i wrote?