Beto says the quiet part out loud.

[CmdrKing]

If we’re gonna go that route, it’s better to think of it this way:

The AR-15 has become the weapon of choice of terrorists. It is well established in this country that reacting in ways that are not necessarily effective and perhaps even counterproductive are electoral winners in those instances.

It’s so reliable in fact, The conspiratorially minded would suspect that the Republicans not jumping on this is a sign they support the terrorists and benefit from their terrorism.

[Yukaphile]

GUNS WERE SIMPLE CREATIONS THEN. They couldn't mow somebody down in six seconds. Also took a minute to reload. You skirt this issue time and time again to argue semantics. Again, if the Founding Fathers had thought that, don't you think they would have done differently? We'll never know, sure, but you're really the one clinging to ideologues. Valuing a fucking murder and maiming tool over people's lives. And of course, the fact a gun is the ULTIMATE expression of masculinity has nothing to do with that, aye?

Not really. Best weapon is the mind. It's what built the gun.

Abortion at certain stages doesn't kill the child.

It is. You subscribe to a very tribal "you can't change the world, so everyone should be allowed a gun" mentality. Granted, outlawing all guns wouldn't do good, because the black market would sell them, and if you tried to crack down on that, then Americans would just get furious and so paranoid thinking the government is overstepping its boundaries, and in this area, it sort of is. I would be in favor of sacrifices for the greater good, but this does not lead to good. You can't change human nature. It is a cultural problem that Americans cling to their guns when things go bad to make themselves feel safe. Hell, I'm sure I could google tons of cases where people accidentally shot themselves or their relatives or failed to protect themselves from "a bad guy with a gun" even WITH a gun. There goes your "good guy with a gun" argument. You achieve this by teaching and learning. And for me, that's why I refuse to buy a gun. I'd tell any kids I had the same. And just hope it works itself out over time.

I didn't say police and military can always protect us. But it is equally foolish to think ordinary citizens could do anything to stop a tyrannical state that is abusing its power given our modern technology. If government went full-blown Nazi Germany and USSR meet and give birth to 1984 on our asses, there'd be resistance, sure, but look at what happened in the German resistance? Absolutely fucking nothing. They couldn't stop those in charge, and it just wound up dooming their people.

Internet was not that widespread and you fucking know that.

[clearspira]

Anything fully-automatic and anything with a capacity over 15-25 rounds. THAT's whay I consider an 'assult' weapon, street-sweeping typewriters.

Anything fully automatic has been an NFA item for over half a century now. You CAN still legally own a machine gun, but it's a long, expensive process....which is probably why virtually nobody gets shot by a machine gun these days. Well, that and the fact that full-auto is rarely useful outside of military applications - even taking criminal activity into account.

Several localities have limited magazine capacity without running afoul of the courts...but it's not very effective, because magazines are cheap, easy to transport, and can be made out of plastic. So even if you ban a certain magazine in a certain place, it's pretty easy to get one somewhere else and bring it in. And heck, with the 3D printers we have now, you don't even have to do that. It's still pretty hard to 3D print a gun, because you need some parts that have to be pretty strong, but a magazine is not one of those parts.

But I'm also someone who thinks we should be more lenient on suppressor ownership, so I may just be a weirdo.

Nah. Silencers are "scary" to many people in the same way that black rifles are, but there isn't really a good reason to ban them. They don't actually make guns any more deadly.

Wait, full-auto is illegal in America? So how did the government manage that achievement despite it being some kind of God-given right to own any kind of gun you want and why can't they do that again?

[Mecha82]

It’s so reliable in fact, The conspiratorially minded would suspect that the Republicans not jumping on this is a sign they support the terrorists and benefit from their terrorism.

Considering that Israelian far right wing government has benefited from keeping conflict in Middle East going on and they leader having been educated in US alongside with American far right that wouldn't be that far fetched to think. I guess that wouldn't be fitting to ideals of those conspiratorially minded people that themselves tend to be far right in political ideology or work to protect establishment like conservative talk show host do.

[CmdrKing]

Well, put another way, Republicans undeniably benefit in multiple ways from white nationalist terror, but it’s impossible to prove the cause and effect (that is, are gun laws lax to foster the terrorism, or are they lax for unrelated reasons and the terrorism is a fringe benefit) of the situation, relegating dwelling too much on it to the realm of conspiracy.

[Yukaphile]

Well, I really do think the NRA is a terrorist organization at this point. All they want are sales, and if people are frightened and desperate enough to turn to a gun for the illusion of security, or if it leads to more shootings that increases said climate of paranoia and suspicion, well, that's all right by them. They'll never admit that, though. It's pure corporate mindset mixed in with the product they sell. That's what you get putting the gun makers on their board. This shit just did not happen in the 1990s to this kind of frequency. And not all of it can be media manipulation.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Amazing that there doesn't seem to be this issue with any of the other Amendments that make up the Bill of Rights.

Bill of Rights are amendments just like any other amendments.

[Admiral X]

The AR-15 has become the weapon of choice of terrorists. It is well established in this country that reacting in ways that are not necessarily effective and perhaps even counterproductive are electoral winners in those instances.

It’s so reliable in fact, The conspiratorially minded would suspect that the Republicans not jumping on this is a sign they support the terrorists and benefit from their terrorism.

That has to be the dumbest rationale I've ever seen given for banning anything. That's like suggesting we ban dogs because Hitler liked them.

GUNS WERE SIMPLE CREATIONS THEN. They couldn't mow somebody down in six seconds. Also took a minute to reload.

You skirt this issue time and time again to argue semantics. Again, if the Founding Fathers had thought that, don't you think they would have done differently?

No, because I've actually read the stuff that they wrote on the subject. The 2nd was explicitly for defense, and civilians were expected to have the same types of arms that a standing army of the time would have. Organized militias often pooled resources to purchase cannons

We'll never know, sure, but you're really the one clinging to ideologues. Valuing a fucking murder and maiming tool over people's lives. And of course, the fact a gun is the ULTIMATE expression of masculinity has nothing to do with that, aye?

Pretty obvious who the ideologue here is.

Not really. Best weapon is the mind. It's what built the gun.

Won't do you a lot of good if you're in a situation where you are unarmed and you have someone intent on harming you who is.

Abortion at certain stages doesn't kill the child.

Wow. And completely misses the point, which was you going on about "life is life."

It is. You subscribe to a very tribal "you can't change the world, so everyone should be allowed a gun" mentality.

I subscribe to the "give people the best chance that they can to defend themselves" mentality.

Hell, I'm sure I could google tons of cases where people accidentally shot themselves or their relatives or failed to protect themselves from "a bad guy with a gun" even WITH a gun. There goes your "good guy with a gun" argument.

No, not at all. Just because a plan crashes every now and then doesn't suddenly invalidate it as a form of transportation. Just because someone fails to defend themselves doesn't suddenly make every other defensive use of a firearm either. The CDC may have tried to bury the report, but the defensive use of firearms far outstrips the criminal use of them.

You achieve this by teaching and learning. And for me, that's why I refuse to buy a gun. I'd tell any kids I had the same. And just hope it works itself out over time.

You can choose to be unarmed, but that is a choice that you have, and you ought to recognize that instead of trying to strip others of that choice.

I didn't say police and military can always protect us. But it is equally foolish to think ordinary citizens could do anything to stop a tyrannical state that is abusing its power given our modern technology.

So you just want to make sure? What I find especially silly is the double-think that says this, and yet also insists that we need to ban all these dangerous weapons of war.

If government went full-blown Nazi Germany and USSR meet and give birth to 1984 on our asses, there'd be resistance, sure, but look at what happened in the German resistance? Absolutely fucking nothing. They couldn't stop those in charge, and it just wound up dooming their people.

Are you now arguing that the people fighting Nazis shouldn't have bothered?

Internet was not that widespread and you fucking know that.

Yeah it was. If I had it in literally the middle of nowhere, North Dakota, it wasn't exactly some rare thing hardly anyone was on. Hell, the media was harping about how dangerous it was back then because you could look up how to make explosives and other dangerous stuff, you know, when they were taking breaks from blaming Marilyn Manson for Columbine.

Wait, full-auto is illegal in America? So how did the government manage that achievement despite it being some kind of God-given right to own any kind of gun you want and why can't they do that again?

Because they didn't actually manage to totally ban it - they just made it a very expensive, drawn out process to get one, and is one of the reasons no one trusts anyone when they say they just want some "common sense gun-control."

Considering that Israelian far right wing government has benefited from keeping conflict in Middle East going on and they leader having been educated in US alongside with American far right that wouldn't be that far fetched to think. I guess that wouldn't be fitting to ideals of those conspiratorially minded people that themselves tend to be far right in political ideology or work to protect establishment like conservative talk show host do.

That's some Alex Jones "they're turning the frogs gay" level shit right there.

Well, put another way, Republicans undeniably benefit in multiple ways from white nationalist terror, but it’s impossible to prove the cause and effect (that is, are gun laws lax to foster the terrorism, or are they lax for unrelated reasons and the terrorism is a fringe benefit) of the situation, relegating dwelling too much on it to the realm of conspiracy.

And that's right up there with it. You know, I'm going to keep this one post in particular in mind the next time someone tries to claim that conspiracy theories are a "right wing" thing.

Well, I really do think the NRA is a terrorist organization at this point.

Then you're an idiot. They're a civil rights organization, and not even a terribly good one. I am again amused by the focus on the NRA for this reason.

[Admiral X]

If we’re gonna go that route, it’s better to think of it this way:

The AR-15 has become the weapon of choice of terrorists. It is well established in this country that reacting in ways that are not necessarily effective and perhaps even counterproductive are electoral winners in those instances.

It’s so reliable in fact, The conspiratorially minded would suspect that the Republicans not jumping on this is a sign they support the terrorists and benefit from their terrorism.

Incidentally, thought I'd point out that this is the rationale that gave us the "war on drugs" due to the association of the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement with drugs. Just thought I'd point that out in case you were feeling terribly clever.

[Yukaphile]

This is the big fucking problem with pro-gun nuts. I HATE their tribal mindset. A gun won't always save you. And a gun doesn't always make things better, even in a world where it's survival of the fittest and you can't stop death. It's ways people don't deal with reality. And I got nothing against responsible gun owners, like hunters, or people who buy a handgun for home defense, or private collectors who lock 'em up properly. But you'd be shocked at how a high number of gun owners are irresponsible. And the super hoarders are as fucking annoying as ever. It's telling in our culture that we're so terrified the government is going to "come away for our guns." First it was Obama. Now it's... what? Just the government! Even Trump okayed a law like that. I find that hilarious. What hypocrites we are.