The 13th Doctor announced

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The Romulan Republic
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Re: The 13th Doctor announced

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Yeah, saying that Doctor Who is too British is like saying that Superman is too American. Kind of missing the point.
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Re: The 13th Doctor announced

Post by Starbug »

I personally don't have any problems with the Doctor being played by a woman: there have certainly been enough hints down the years that the Time Lord view on gender is much more fluid than ours. And it certainly opens up some interesting possibilities for plots and character development.

My only concern is in how they're planning on handling it. "Oh, so I'm a woman this time? Oh well, on with the adventures!" is fine, because that's very much in character for the Doctor. But the moment we start getting "Well, speaking as a woman..." or "From a woman's point of view..." with no true relevance to the plot, that's where you lose me as a viewer.
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Re: The 13th Doctor announced

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The Romulan Republic wrote:Yeah, saying that Doctor Who is too British is like saying that Superman is too American. Kind of missing the point.
One of the most fun things about watching DW as an American is that it gives you a sense of what watching most sci-fi is like for the rest of the world. Instead of New York and Washington, now it's London and Cardiff that the aliens are always invading, and they all speak with British accents while doing it. :D
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Re: The 13th Doctor announced

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Starbug wrote:I personally don't have any problems with the Doctor being played by a woman: there have certainly been enough hints down the years that the Time Lord view on gender is much more fluid than ours. And it certainly opens up some interesting possibilities for plots and character development.

My only concern is in how they're planning on handling it. "Oh, so I'm a woman this time? Oh well, on with the adventures!" is fine, because that's very much in character for the Doctor. But the moment we start getting "Well, speaking as a woman..." or "From a woman's point of view..." with no true relevance to the plot, that's where you lose me as a viewer.
I'm at least as concerned about unintended sexism, cheap jokes, and gratuitous objectification.

And I expect the Doctor's attitudes and view of the world to change somewhat, which happens every regeneration. And I don't mind them addressing the fact that she's a woman, or even the Doctor acknowledging that fact, or referencing it from time to time. It would be wrong to simply ignore the subject.

But, and this is the big disclaimer, I would not want her gender to be the only thing that defines her- not that I think for a moment that they'll do that. The Doctor will still be the Doctor, and while I wouldn't expect a gender-change to have no effect on her (and I admit, as much as I like this decision, it still feels a little strange to call the Doctor "her", though I expect I'll get used to it in time), I also wouldn't expect that change to suddenly dominate every aspect of her personality when that personality is built on the memories and experiences of twelve (thirteen counting War) former incarnations with a life span in millennia (or far more, depending on how you count things like "Heaven Sent"'s loop).

I do expect that realistically, the Doctor would experience different reactions from some of the people around her, especially in certain time periods and places. Not that Who has ever scored high on historical realism, but actually, that could be a good way to handle the issue of gender, I think, if written well. Have the Doctor just go on being the Doctor, except a woman, but show others acting differently toward her because of her gender. It would, if done well, be a subtle and poignant way to underline the absurdity and unfairness of judging someone's capabilities on their gender, without hitting the audience over the head with the message.

Since I just got back from Wonder Woman, I'll use it as an example- while I could offer a lot of critiques of its handling of the subject of gender and sexism, it was interesting, during the scenes in London for example, to see how they did a bit of this- Diana just being Diana, while its everyone else's reactions to her that are off.

As far as Companion dynamics are concerned- well, I'd rather they avoid the "companion who flirts with the Doctor" model for a while anyway, but it would obviously have an effect their (except with bisexual characters).

Mind, I think that again, it might effect others' reactions to the Doctor more than the Doctor herself. Its been pretty heavily implied that the Doctor is bisexual (at least in some incarnations), as I recall, and I tend to subscribe to the theory that that's probably the norm for Time Lords, or at least more so than it is for humans. If your gender can change unpredictably in regeneration, being flexible in terms of sexual orientation would help ensure that relationships last beyond a single regeneration. Otherwise you'd have to deal with hassels like divorcing/remarrying (do Time Lords even marry normally?) after every regeneration. :D
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Re: The 13th Doctor announced

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The Romulan Republic wrote: Mind, I think that again, it might effect others' reactions to the Doctor more than the Doctor herself. Its been pretty heavily implied that the Doctor is bisexual (at least in some incarnations), as I recall, and I tend to subscribe to the theory that that's probably the norm for Time Lords, or at least more so than it is for humans. If your gender can change unpredictably in regeneration, being flexible in terms of sexual orientation would help ensure that relationships last beyond a single regeneration. Otherwise you'd have to deal with hassels like divorcing/remarrying (do Time Lords even marry normally?) after every regeneration. :D
Considering it's plausible that Time Lords could regenerate into someone outside the male/female binary (based on, I think it was Nine mentioning the possibility of regenerating into having an extra head or no head (assuming that wasn't entirely a joke), and on the fact we see Romana regenerating into non-Time Lord forms, I think it's plausible that they could regenerate into a non-male or female sex and/or gender), I'd say it's possible the norm is poly or pansexual or even asexual for them.

As for whether they marry 'normally', I don't think anything has been said on the matter (at least not in the main show, there might be some books that go into the matter). Considering the number of times we've seen the Doctor get married (or him getting married is mentioned as having happened off screen; off the top of my head there's Susan's grandmother (unseen or even mentioned for that matter*), River Song and Elizabeth I, and I'm fairly sure others have been mentioned but I can't remember off hand), it's plausible that Time Lords might even practice polyamory or polygamy when it comes to marriage.

*completely unsupported by anything shown on screen (outside the UST), I think it'd be interesting if Susan's grandmother was the Master; most of his regenerations are unaccounted for (at most we see three; his 'original' version as a boy, the 'skeletor' version from The Deadly Assasin to Keeper of Traken and the Roger Delgado incarnation (assuming he's not the same one as Skeletor); Anthony Ainley doesn't count as that was a hijacked body as was the one in the TV Movie and the Jacobi, Simm and Gomez are from a new cycle so don't count either, leaving 11 unaccounted for, plenty of time for another female incarnation).
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Re: The 13th Doctor announced

Post by GandALF »

I remember reading somewhere that Time Lords reproduced asexually via brave new world style "genetic looms" or something, and so Susan was created from the DNA from someone created from the DNA of the Doctor. That's also why they can regenerate apparently, they deliberately modified themselves.

That all seems to have retconned, if it was ever canon, but I kind of like that idea and I prefer him/her being a completely unromantic mentor figure. The aeons of age difference make the companion romances kind of creepy.
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Re: The 13th Doctor announced

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I don't see the age difference in Companion romances as creepy. Not when both parties are adults, and capable of consent.

You could find the disparity in knowledge and power between the Doctor and a typical Companion enough to make it creepy, but that's a different matter, one not directly related to age.

Mostly, though, I just don't like repetitive, gratuitous shipping, or the risk of reducing the Companions to something close to the "girl of the week" cliché.

Rose I can accept, because she what gave the Doctor some hope and happiness after the horror of the Time War. Past Time Lord lovers I can accept.

Having flirting or romance be a regular part of Doctor/Companion interactions, though? No. He's the Doctor, not James Fucking Bond.
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Re: The 13th Doctor announced

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GandALF wrote:I remember reading somewhere that Time Lords reproduced asexually via brave new world style "genetic looms" or something, and so Susan was created from the DNA from someone created from the DNA of the Doctor. That's also why they can regenerate apparently, they deliberately modified themselves.

That all seems to have retconned, if it was ever canon, but I kind of like that idea and I prefer him/her being a completely unromantic mentor figure. The aeons of age difference make the companion romances kind of creepy.
I think that was just a thing in a couple of the books, never in the show itself (iirc the book it comes from is called 'Lungbarrow' or something, and iirc I've seen it mentioned that it was based on the Cartmell Master Plan).
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Re: The 13th Doctor announced

Post by Starbug »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Starbug wrote:I personally don't have any problems with the Doctor being played by a woman: there have certainly been enough hints down the years that the Time Lord view on gender is much more fluid than ours. And it certainly opens up some interesting possibilities for plots and character development.

My only concern is in how they're planning on handling it. "Oh, so I'm a woman this time? Oh well, on with the adventures!" is fine, because that's very much in character for the Doctor. But the moment we start getting "Well, speaking as a woman..." or "From a woman's point of view..." with no true relevance to the plot, that's where you lose me as a viewer.
I'm at least as concerned about unintended sexism, cheap jokes, and gratuitous objectification.

And I expect the Doctor's attitudes and view of the world to change somewhat, which happens every regeneration. And I don't mind them addressing the fact that she's a woman, or even the Doctor acknowledging that fact, or referencing it from time to time. It would be wrong to simply ignore the subject.

But, and this is the big disclaimer, I would not want her gender to be the only thing that defines her- not that I think for a moment that they'll do that. The Doctor will still be the Doctor, and while I wouldn't expect a gender-change to have no effect on her (and I admit, as much as I like this decision, it still feels a little strange to call the Doctor "her", though I expect I'll get used to it in time), I also wouldn't expect that change to suddenly dominate every aspect of her personality when that personality is built on the memories and experiences of twelve (thirteen counting War) former incarnations with a life span in millennia (or far more, depending on how you count things like "Heaven Sent"'s loop).

I do expect that realistically, the Doctor would experience different reactions from some of the people around her, especially in certain time periods and places. Not that Who has ever scored high on historical realism, but actually, that could be a good way to handle the issue of gender, I think, if written well. Have the Doctor just go on being the Doctor, except a woman, but show others acting differently toward her because of her gender. It would, if done well, be a subtle and poignant way to underline the absurdity and unfairness of judging someone's capabilities on their gender, without hitting the audience over the head with the message.

Since I just got back from Wonder Woman, I'll use it as an example- while I could offer a lot of critiques of its handling of the subject of gender and sexism, it was interesting, during the scenes in London for example, to see how they did a bit of this- Diana just being Diana, while its everyone else's reactions to her that are off.

As far as Companion dynamics are concerned- well, I'd rather they avoid the "companion who flirts with the Doctor" model for a while anyway, but it would obviously have an effect their (except with bisexual characters).

Mind, I think that again, it might effect others' reactions to the Doctor more than the Doctor herself. Its been pretty heavily implied that the Doctor is bisexual (at least in some incarnations), as I recall, and I tend to subscribe to the theory that that's probably the norm for Time Lords, or at least more so than it is for humans. If your gender can change unpredictably in regeneration, being flexible in terms of sexual orientation would help ensure that relationships last beyond a single regeneration. Otherwise you'd have to deal with hassels like divorcing/remarrying (do Time Lords even marry normally?) after every regeneration. :D
I don't have any problem with it having an impact on the Doctor's personality, so long as it doesn't completely overwrite what's gone before. I'm just concerned about how the modern BBC, with the agenda it seems to be pushing, is going to want it to go. They could have brought in a show-runner they think they can strong-arm into towing the party line.

I'm willing to give it a chance: I don't remember seeing anything Whittaker's been in, or anything Chibnall has done, so I'm going in with no preconceptions about their work, but I have concerns about the Powers That Be.
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Re: The 13th Doctor announced

Post by The Romulan Republic »

What "agenda" would that be? The BBC, in my experience, is neither far Left nor far Right, as a whole.

Its... pro-British, I guess?

Anyway, Chibnall is a long-time Who writer, and also ran the (quite well-received) murder mystery drama Broadchurch (and its American remake, Gracepoint, I believe). His credentials are as good as anyone we're likely to get, except insofar as I'd have actually preferred someone who isn't on the Moffat-era writing staff running things.

I'm not that familiar with Whittaker (though I think she was in Broadchurch as well), but by all accounts she's a competent and experienced actor.
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