ENT - Terra Prime

[CharlesPhipps]

I think the problem with trying to make Terra Prime sympathetic is that RL hate groups are not misunderstood. They are very clear on their opinions and their opinions are awful. They're not anti-Xindi, they're anti-alien. If you're going to depict a hate group realistically then you have to Embrace they're every bit as awful as a cartoon villain.

[Wargriffin]

Archer was finally the captain we were always told he was... but basically never acted like


Which was a really one of the sins of Enterprise... a perfectly good waste of Scott Bakula

[Darth Wedgius]

Maybe the lack of translating the more extreme pejoratives might be intentional. If you encounter a word that the universal translator can't handle (making the first part of the name just a little hyperbolic BTW) then you might ask someone about it. If the person you ask is a diplomat, they might translate it, well, diplomatically. At the least it might give time for the nastier insults to not raise the temper of the receiver...

Also some insults might not translate well. If you called a Deltan a fucker, the Deltan might look confused and say, "Well, yes, about twenty times a day." The NX-01 ran into a culture that believed eating was an intimate thing that should be done privately, and how would a human react to someone saying, "You eat with your mother!"

[9ansean]

I think the problem with trying to make Terra Prime sympathetic is that RL hate groups are not misunderstood. They are very clear on their opinions and their opinions are awful. They're not anti-Xindi, they're anti-alien. If you're going to depict a hate group realistically then you have to Embrace they're every bit as awful as a cartoon villain.

When we say cartoon villains, we are usual talking about villains who are exaggerated to the hilt in a way even a child can easily understand. Really hate group aren't like that. That don't enjoy gloating about how much they love being evil. Quit the contrary. They tend to believe (and work to convince) that they are on the side of good. Extremists thrive on appealing to desperation and assuring the desperate that we can save you and that anyone against us is against you too. Their opinions made be awful, but they wouldn't be convincing if they weren't based on widely held fears and desires.

The problem with making those kinds of characters cartoonish is that it gives the impression one can never work with, be related to, or at any time come close to thinking like them. It reinforces that kind cognitive dissonance that Chuck spoke about so eloquently. That's doesn't mean we should write them as sympathetic, but it does mean that we should be aware that DO relay on appealing to sympathy goals and concerns. As I said in an earlier post about Demons, moral panic can't exist if there isn't some credible threat. If anything I find this only makes them more frightening. Dukat didn't become one of the most convincing villains in Star Trek because he did many bad things. It was because he was able to explain or defend them in a ways that made sense.

Admittedly by presenting a villain as even semi-relatable there is always a risk that some other desperate persons might come to believe in them even if the story doesn't want you to. The recent controversy about the upcoming Joker movie is perfect example of this. However, I think we need to recognize how anyone of us or anyone we know could potential fall into some trap that will leave us believing in something repugnant and absurd. Even if most of would (hopefully) never do something destructive with that belief.

[CharlesPhipps]

When we say cartoon villains, we are usual talking about villains who are exaggerated to the hilt in a way even a child can easily understand. Really hate group aren't like that. That don't enjoy gloating about how much they love being evil. Quit the contrary. They tend to believe (and work to convince) that they are on the side of good. Extremists thrive on appealing to desperation and assuring the desperate that we can save you and that anyone against us is against you too. Their opinions made be awful, but they wouldn't be convincing if they weren't based on widely held fears and desires.

I suppose it's more the irreconcilability that I feel is underestimated than anything else. I live in Kentucky and last year we made the historic progress of banning Nazi and KKK paraphernalia from being sold at the Kentucky State Fair--where children attend. The individuals there are actually quite upfront about the fact that they are about white power, the kicking out of minorities, and various other abominable belief systems. The presentation of them as awful people, to me, is not one of gloating about being evil but the fact that they gloat about their beliefs--which a show like Star Trek should say are evil.

[Admiral X]

That wouldn't be terribly interesting to watch. Hell, even a lot of cartoons have more nuance with their bad guys. The other aspect is that if I wanted to get preached at, I'd go to church.

[Darth Wedgius]

When we say cartoon villains, we are usual talking about villains who are exaggerated to the hilt in a way even a child can easily understand. Really hate group aren't like that. That don't enjoy gloating about how much they love being evil. Quit the contrary. They tend to believe (and work to convince) that they are on the side of good. Extremists thrive on appealing to desperation and assuring the desperate that we can save you and that anyone against us is against you too. Their opinions made be awful, but they wouldn't be convincing if they weren't based on widely held fears and desires.

I suppose it's more the irreconcilability that I feel is underestimated than anything else. I live in Kentucky and last year we made the historic progress of banning Nazi and KKK paraphernalia from being sold at the Kentucky State Fair--where children attend. The individuals there are actually quite upfront about the fact that they are about white power, the kicking out of minorities, and various other abominable belief systems. The presentation of them as awful people, to me, is not one of gloating about being evil but the fact that they gloat about their beliefs--which a show like Star Trek should say are evil.

But some people who condemn white separatists might be sympathetic to black separatist groups. I didn't bring that up to be an asshole, and I'm not accusing you of that, but some people might cite "historical context" or "nuance" to justify it. For that matter, there are white separatists and black separatists who get along because they each want nothing to do with each other.

Every group has a reason that they feel justifies what they do, and which others might feel more or less sympathy for, and you can't stick a needle in many of these to get a reading on the MoralityMeter(tm) because we don't have a MoralityMeter(tm); you just have humans using squishy computers to do their best.

[CharlesPhipps]

But some people who condemn white separatists might be sympathetic to black separatist groups. I didn't bring that up to be an asshole, and I'm not accusing you of that, but some people might cite "historical context" or "nuance" to justify it. For that matter, there are white separatists and black separatists who get along because they each want nothing to do with each other.

Every group has a reason that they feel justifies what they do, and which others might feel more or less sympathy for, and you can't stick a needle in many of these to get a reading on the MoralityMeter(tm) because we don't have a MoralityMeter(tm); you just have humans using squishy computers to do their best.

John B. Finch said, "The right to swing your fists ends where my nose begins."

Basically, whenever one speaks of tolerating or cultural relativism, there's this weird belief that it ends up allowing tolerance of other people's intolerance or that it prevents one from developing some universal standard of basic human rights. It's weird given this is a Star Trek review site (primarily) since that is kind of basic to the Federation. They are very accepting of the quirkiness of its members but draw the line immediately at when it includes human rights violations.

It was notably my Indian female history teacher, of all people, who taught a blistering condemnation of colonialism that said the British government was correct in their handling of sati (the burning of widows after the deaths of their husband). Quoting the letter regarding it, "The British government respects the custom of India to burn widows as long as India respects the custom of the British to hang the men who do."

Which is to say that lots of people believe they're doing the right thing and lots of people can believe the people who are doing the right thing are fucking assholes.

[Nightbeat74]

as a kid i never understood why folks would get mad in " star trek times" about an alien/human hybrid baby cuz it is just so cute! but thought it would back fire on TP cuz some might think "did TP kidnap that baby!" "hay she looks kinda sick did they poison the poor baby!" now with some "mars needs women" trope aside after all the area 51 memes it looks like humans would want to get with aliens more cuz hay our bits can go together! with no problems.

[CharlesPhipps]

as a kid i never understood why folks would get mad in " star trek times" about an alien/human hybrid baby cuz it is just so cute! but thought it would back fire on TP cuz some might think "did TP kidnap that baby!" "hay she looks kinda sick did they poison the poor baby!" now with some "mars needs women" trope aside after all the area 51 memes it looks like humans would want to get with aliens more cuz hay our bits can go together! with no problems.

I have to say that it was kind of ridiculous that it wouldn't backfire and I was hoping that it would. The Terra Firma people show the baby and it's like, "Awww, how cute" and "wow, Vulcans really aren't that different from us at all." Which infuriates them.