Star Trek: Discovery temporarily open

[Beastro]

I personally find the "DISCO isn't really Star Trek" commentary to be disingenuous, because what usually is meant by it is, "I like Orville more than DISCO." The opinion is valid, and fine, the problem is that it's being delivered in an intellectually dishonest way. If you like one more than the other, you know what? It's OK to say that explicitly. There's no need for No True Scotsman fallacies.

I still haven't watched either, but what I meant was preserving some spirit of the shows in the way DS9 did while making a bug break with what was established in Star Trek with regard to its utopianism.

IMO, from what I've seen in threads like this and elsewhere STD doesn't understand that angle to the show while Orville is being too much fanfiction by revelling in it.

I personally find the "DISCO isn't really Star Trek" commentary to be disingenuous, because what usually is meant by it is, "I like Orville more than DISCO."

Either that or you're dealing with a TOS absolutist.

A DS9 fan and how it struck that above mentioned balance while in a lot of ways being closer to what TOS was than TNG was.

[RobbyB1982]

I barely remember TOS. I watched it when I was a kid, and a little in reruns over the years.
I grew up on TNG, and just rewatched the whole thing with my wife. It was okay, mostly the characters carried it.
I loved DS9. A little darker and more mature, ongoing plots. But it still had a sense of optimism and fun and wasn't just constantly dark and dreary.
I got tired of Voyager missing out on its premise and constantly resetting and just gave up on it around season 4 or 5. Though Chuck's "Janeway is the villain" angle makes me want to re-evaluate it.
I watched the pilot episode of Enterprise and it was clear they were trying waaaaay to hard to sex it up and dumb it down, and didn't watch any further.
I like most of the movies, but can't deal with the Abrams films... more because it was dumb than because it was a reboot. But I like the third reboot film.

I don't like STD because it's just... lacking in any character I can care about, any real sense of hope or joy. It's missing something that is essential Trek. Basically everyone is just an asshole and I don't care if the entire ship gets blown up. I don't like the captain, or Cow, and the lead not-vulcan is just... meh. I liked the first captain who they killed. And I certainly don't care about the Klingons. (Also the Klingons look weird for literally no reason at all except to look different.) I'm basically in full agreement with Chuck on the show.

I appreciate that the effects are super expensive but that isn't what makes the heart of a show. If this was Battlestar Galactica it'd be a great fit, or if it were a brand new franchise entirely I might be more interested.... but it's Star Trek and it just feels wrong.

I still haven't watched a single episode of the Orville because I can't stand Seth McFarlane.

So, my dislike of STD isn't because I worship the original series or think Orville is a better show. I dislike it because its dreary and mean and the cast are all assholes, endlessly so. I've managed to drag myself through the first six episodes and it's really hard to be motivated to watch any more... it's mostly Chuck's reviews making me dredge on.

[Asvarduil]

I personally find the "DISCO isn't really Star Trek" commentary to be disingenuous, because what usually is meant by it is, "I like Orville more than DISCO." The opinion is valid, and fine, the problem is that it's being delivered in an intellectually dishonest way. If you like one more than the other, you know what? It's OK to say that explicitly. There's no need for No True Scotsman fallacies.

I still haven't watched either, but what I meant was preserving some spirit of the shows in the way DS9 did while making a bug break with what was established in Star Trek with regard to its utopianism.

IMO, from what I've seen in threads like this and elsewhere STD doesn't understand that angle to the show while Orville is being too much fanfiction by revelling in it.

I personally find the "DISCO isn't really Star Trek" commentary to be disingenuous, because what usually is meant by it is, "I like Orville more than DISCO."

Either that or you're dealing with a TOS absolutist.

A DS9 fan and how it struck that above mentioned balance while in a lot of ways being closer to what TOS was than TNG was.

I'd agree on the point of the angle of the shows. DIS's writers don't yet have a firm grasp of what the show is and what it's really about. All of the first half of Season 1 to me is a reaction to current geopolitical trends first, though there are moments of good storytelling (and: Michelle Yeoh in a leather corset. We must never forget that). Chances are good that DIS is following the trend all Star Trek series have put forward: the first two seasons suck Seh'lat balls...but at some point in the second season, someone has a flash of inspiration and forges the show into something with a real message. We're nowhere near that, though, so it's probably best to give DIS a couple of years to find itself.

As to Orville, I haven't seen any episodes of it outside of Chuck's reviews, so my ability to discuss it is limited. Orville - based one what I've read of it - also has interesting ideas, but it's feeling like to me that the comedy angle is somewhat holding it back. Orville knows what it is and wants to be - Star Trek TNG fanfic, with added funny - but the problem is that Seth McFarlane I don't think understands how to make comedy in a space opera work; he's trying to leverage regular, run-of-the-mill humor, but in a setting as alien as a space opera, it doesn't tend to translate well. I think Orville would be funnier if there was more emphasis on high-brow humor, creative wordplay, and subversions of expectations. What's more, those sorts of comedic setups could also co-opt the more serious aspects of the script, and thus improve the quality of the final episodes.

Both these series have strong and weak points. I feel like DIS is much weaker than Orville, but DIS is a stronger Star Trek offering than what we've had hitherto - this first half of the first season is a lot more appealing than most of Enterprise, and bear in mind there was a good bit of Enterprise that I found myself honestly enjoying. Both series I feel need to take a season or two and accept, then fix, their weaknesses. Still, there's some good potential in both shows, and I plan to enjoy both - not uncritically, of course, but based on the merits they both bring to the table. I'm not going to be a hardass because a series is or is not 'trekky' enough.

[Beastro]

As to Orville, I haven't seen any episodes of it outside of Chuck's reviews, so my ability to discuss it is limited. Orville - based one what I've read of it - also has interesting ideas, but it's feeling like to me that the comedy angle is somewhat holding it back. Orville knows what it is and wants to be - Star Trek TNG fanfic, with added funny - but the problem is that Seth McFarlane I don't think understands how to make comedy in a space opera work; he's trying to leverage regular, run-of-the-mill humor, but in a setting as alien as a space opera, it doesn't tend to translate well. I think Orville would be funnier if there was more emphasis on high-brow humor, creative wordplay, and subversions of expectations. What's more, those sorts of comedic setups could also co-opt the more serious aspects of the script, and thus improve the quality of the final episodes.

My hope is that what Orville currently is was a soft bet to get Fox to get on board with it, MacFarlane making a nostalgia laced trip for old ST fans alongside his established reputation as a comedy show runner, but now that the shows been secured and given a second season, it can now have a solid enough foundation to relax both and slowly grow into being it's own thing.

I'm reminded of the way Buffy the Vampire Slayer was originally VERY heavy on the comedy in the manner of the film, but that slowly faded as Whedon went more into developing the world building around the setting that I doubt would have flown on it's own had it begun that way.

IMO, Orville's riding on a cloud quickly being burned away by the sun. Unless it becomes it's own thing it's not going to last.

[CharlesPhipps]

I honestly like the Orville less and less the more dramatic it tries to be. I'm onboard with "What if Reginald Barclay, the Lower Deckers, and other neurotics had their own ship and we followed their day to life lives?" I am not at all onboard with "serious" Orville.

[Deledrius]

I honestly like the Orville less and less the more dramatic it tries to be. I'm onboard with "What if Reginald Barclay, the Lower Deckers, and other neurotics had their own ship and we followed their day to life lives?" I am not at all onboard with "serious" Orville.

For me personally I feel the show is finding a sweet spot between the two that works, where we see some competent goofballs contending with serious problems by just doing their best.

[Yukaphile]

I'd prefer exploring a concept I raised on this very board. What is the world like through Data's eyes?

[CharlesPhipps]

Requested "New Eden" and "Point of Light"

[Deledrius]

Requested "New Eden" and "Point of Light"

Awesome, thank you!