The Walking Dead - "Guts"

[Beastro]

I like Chuck's point about having to make long term decisions in an apocalypse. Something the show took over half a decade to realize was something the main characters should have been doing from the start.

For instance, the Herschel farm from season 2. There's no reason not to raid all the local hardware stores and construction sites, build up a cement wall around the farmhouse and barn, then build another fence further out for crops and at well locations, etc. It won't solve everything, but it will be enough for most problems while you focus on rebuilding. Such thoughts took years for the main characters to consider, when it should have taken days or weeks, maybe a couple months, tops.
Sometimes the main characters will purposely ruin a safe location, as Carol and Tyreese famously did after a bad experience at a pecan farm, letting walkers roam in and destroy everything afterwards.

It's why at times, the show seemed to be having the characters shoot themselves in the foot constantly, so they could continue having zombie action scenes, because having the characters rebuild civilization just wasn't a story that they wanted to tell.

I don't know how things went after the end of the third season. Took a peek at the fourth and dropped it, but I really got tired of the show dancing around the reality of what "society" would turn into in such a world. Mankind would be thrown back to tribal days structurally with only small groups able to really function and all the practical tyranny that comes with that.

You do what your tribal chief tells you, or you'll be cut off to die lest you risk the tribe as a whole. You have certain valuable skills or talents you're tribe will control how you use them and how you live so as to make the most of them and minimize you getting killed.

It would be a harsh, nasty way of living with other people, something that would be hitting a brick wall to modern people having to relearn old ways of survival and working with each other outside of a liberal society.

The ending of Season 2 seemed to understand that and I was hoping it would go in the way I anticipated, but then it seemed to double back on it before abandoning it. That, the comic book silliness of the Gov and the repetition of many things (such as his lapse back into comic book villainy) were too much for me.

[Beastro]

Two things always bothered me about the show, armor and zombie huntin'. Zombies are just people, they bite and scratch, its a very very very easy thing to defend against. Sports equipment, riot armor, heck my freaking stormtrooper armor made of plastic could provide a defense and to their credit they do show armor use on occasion. But it boggles my mind why everyone isn't wearing armor. Even if its the heat, its Georgia after all, having your limbs protected would do plenty to keep alot of people safe, you don't need to walk around as Sir Dude of Apocalypsia all the time.

One word: Phalanx



You wouldn't need depth to them, but enough men to alternate spearing zombie heads while backing up. If too many start to pile up or they're outflanked, break the formation, run away and reform elsewhere.

You wouldn't even need much armour. The Athenians developed an extreme form of phalanx, whose name slips me, which wore less armour and only had a small buckler type shield which relied mainly on their unusually long spears to provide protection via distance from the enemy.

[clearspira]

I like Chuck's point about having to make long term decisions in an apocalypse. Something the show took over half a decade to realize was something the main characters should have been doing from the start.

For instance, the Herschel farm from season 2. There's no reason not to raid all the local hardware stores and construction sites, build up a cement wall around the farmhouse and barn, then build another fence further out for crops and at well locations, etc. It won't solve everything, but it will be enough for most problems while you focus on rebuilding. Such thoughts took years for the main characters to consider, when it should have taken days or weeks, maybe a couple months, tops.
Sometimes the main characters will purposely ruin a safe location, as Carol and Tyreese famously did after a bad experience at a pecan farm, letting walkers roam in and destroy everything afterwards.

It's why at times, the show seemed to be having the characters shoot themselves in the foot constantly, so they could continue having zombie action scenes, because having the characters rebuild civilization just wasn't a story that they wanted to tell.

I don't know how things went after the end of the third season. Took a peek at the fourth and dropped it, but I really got tired of the show dancing around the reality of what "society" would turn into in such a world. Mankind would be thrown back to tribal days structurally with only small groups able to really function and all the practical tyranny that comes with that.

You do what your tribal chief tells you, or you'll be cut off to die lest you risk the tribe as a whole. You have certain valuable skills or talents you're tribe will control how you use them and how you live so as to make the most of them and minimize you getting killed.

It would be a harsh, nasty way of living with other people, something that would be hitting a brick wall to modern people having to relearn old ways of survival and working with each other outside of a liberal society.

Human beings are assholes, the strong will dominate the weak given the chance. That is why we have the police, the army, laws, prisons. That is why it took tens of thousands of years for democracy, innocent until proven guilty, equal rights for women and minorities, and laws that say that rape and slavery are wrong. Don't forget, Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks are still in living memory.

This state we currently have of equality and freedom and liberalism? It is RARE AS HELL and would fall the second there is no one enforcing it.

[Yukaphile]

Yeah, it's amazing we didn't kill ourselves last century, when I read about the lies and the sheer brutality a lot of people sank to. And it seems the Cuban Missile Crisis was almost that. Somewhere, in another parallel reality, there is a Mad Max after-the-end type world where we were all nuked in 1962, and the world is still recovering.

[FaxModem1]

I like Chuck's point about having to make long term decisions in an apocalypse. Something the show took over half a decade to realize was something the main characters should have been doing from the start.

For instance, the Herschel farm from season 2. There's no reason not to raid all the local hardware stores and construction sites, build up a cement wall around the farmhouse and barn, then build another fence further out for crops and at well locations, etc. It won't solve everything, but it will be enough for most problems while you focus on rebuilding. Such thoughts took years for the main characters to consider, when it should have taken days or weeks, maybe a couple months, tops.
Sometimes the main characters will purposely ruin a safe location, as Carol and Tyreese famously did after a bad experience at a pecan farm, letting walkers roam in and destroy everything afterwards.

It's why at times, the show seemed to be having the characters shoot themselves in the foot constantly, so they could continue having zombie action scenes, because having the characters rebuild civilization just wasn't a story that they wanted to tell.

I don't know how things went after the end of the third season. Took a peek at the fourth and dropped it, but I really got tired of the show dancing around the reality of what "society" would turn into in such a world. Mankind would be thrown back to tribal days structurally with only small groups able to really function and all the practical tyranny that comes with that.

You do what your tribal chief tells you, or you'll be cut off to die lest you risk the tribe as a whole. You have certain valuable skills or talents you're tribe will control how you use them and how you live so as to make the most of them and minimize you getting killed.

It would be a harsh, nasty way of living with other people, something that would be hitting a brick wall to modern people having to relearn old ways of survival and working with each other outside of a liberal society.

The ending of Season 2 seemed to understand that and I was hoping it would go in the way I anticipated, but then it seemed to double back on it before abandoning it. That, the comic book silliness of the Gov and the repetition of many things (such as his lapse back into comic book villainy) were too much for me.

Well, there's a reason that places like The Kingdom and Alexandria thrive, while Rick's group keeps on losing people, they hunker down, focus on long term gains, and build themselves around their local leaders and the myths of what their communities are about. King Ezekiel used the fact that he had a rather tame tiger with him to get people to follow his lead, and worked to generally make a prosperous community. Bypassing the steps of going through the Hunter-gatherer phase of civilization and going directly to an agricultural city-state.

Ince you have strong enough walls, a population working together towards common cause, and leaders who work to find niches for everyone, it's amazing how much progress can happen. They're very primitive in comparison to today's society, but they're making sure things are rebuilt enough to bypass a lot of nasty parts of civilization.

Of course, they have to deal with the same problems that every city state has to deal with: outside invaders, stronger city-state neighbors, and strife that comes in any society.

But I find that kind of drama much more compelling than watching Rick's group falling apart again because they don't secure where they are or decide to improve it, and watch dumbfounded as what they have falls apart again.

[clearspira]

Chuck raises the Dawn of the Dead remake, but I think the first is also a good example of what he was getting at as this film shows us that, after the worst of the apocalypse is done, after you have reached a place of safety... society after the end is boring as hell.

Day after day after day of being stuck in one place. No new entertainment, no new music, no new people, the same boring food you can scavenge or grow. Just grinding monotony. And I do like this interpretation because it turns on its head the common view of adventure and freedom that a lot of people associate with the Western or the apocalypse.

[FaxModem1]

Chuck raises the Dawn of the Dead remake, but I think the first is also a good example of what he was getting at as this film shows us that, after the worst of the apocalypse is done, after you have reached a place of safety... society after the end is boring as hell.

Day after day after day of being stuck in one place. No new entertainment, no new music, no new people, the same boring food you can scavenge or grow. Just grinding monotony. And I do like this interpretation because it turns on its head the common view of adventure and freedom that a lot of people associate with the Western or the apocalypse.

I would have to partially refute that in regards to entertainment, if security, shelter, water, and food, etc. were a given, you'd have a lot to read up on. For instance, picking an example out of my head, have you read every Oz book by Baum? Have you learned knitting? Are you applying every part of your life that you can? Etc. Now think just how many books are in a bookstore or library. You'll never have time to finish them all.

The lack of new people would be a kick in the pants, but you could (hopefully) still build a life around those you find. Being by yourself for the rest of your natural life would be awful, but being around a small community could work, if they don't self destruct.

[Deledrius]

It's why at times, the show seemed to be having the characters shoot themselves in the foot constantly, so they could continue having zombie action scenes, because having the characters rebuild civilization just wasn't a story that they wanted to tell.

Just from watching these two episodes (especially the second) I can see this looks to be the go-to for keeping the show going, and I don't think I'd care to watch it. I want to see people overcoming hard problems. Watching them instead create stupid ones for no reason other than drama is bad drama and makes me simultaneously bored and annoyed.

If Merle was high it makes more sense, but it always bothered me why he didn't cut through the metal support or the hand cuff.

I didn't catch that he was high when I watched it. I don't think it alters my assessment of the character though, as even Chuck states it's a bad choice on top of bad choices (though possibly an understandable one). A suicidal group member isn't much better than a murderous one.

I have a hard time feeling sympathy for him being left alone. The only reason he was handcuffed in the first place was a direct result of his poor actions, when he tried to beat a fellow survivor from his own camp, with the apparent intent to fatally injure him. It's unfortunate, and the attempt was made to save him, but him being in a position where he was unable to join the group in retreat was his own fault. However, I'm sure he'll manage to survive to create more problems going forward. Sadly, this sort of "twist" is an anti-incentive for me to watch more. By all rights the character should have died on that roof, but because of the drama, he'll come back angry instead. Somehow.

From a utilitarian point of view (one which it is hard to avoid in such a tight survival situation these people are in) the likely thing for them to do would have been to euthanize him. He's a danger to the group, and he has no compassion for his fellow survivors. He even states his belief that he is of a different "kind". It's a miracle he didn't get them killed here, and his intent to keep trying to get them killed is a liability. I assume Chuck has foreknowledge, because his defense of this character's obvious positive attributes were not demonstrated in this episode. In the situation the camp is in, it's possible he's simply a necessary evil who hadn't tipped over the edge before being sent out on this mission. It's impossible to know whether he's actually skilled in any way essential to their survival, and in fact only demonstrates here that his judgment leaves him quite the opposite.

[FaxModem1]

It's why at times, the show seemed to be having the characters shoot themselves in the foot constantly, so they could continue having zombie action scenes, because having the characters rebuild civilization just wasn't a story that they wanted to tell.

Just from watching these two episodes (especially the second) I can see this looks to be the go-to for keeping the show going, and I don't think I'd care to watch it. I want to see people overcoming hard problems. Watching them instead create stupid ones for no reason other than drama is bad drama and makes me simultaneously bored and annoyed.

Well, there's reason I like the eras where they focus on their community fiefdom and dealing with other powers. That, and King Ezekiel is gold in every season he's in. I'd still say the journey to get there isn't really worth it unless you plan on just cramming your way through.

I didn't catch that he was high when I watched it. I don't think it alters my assessment of the character though, as even Chuck states it's a bad choice on top of bad choices (though possibly an understandable one). A suicidal group member isn't much better than a murderous one.

I have a hard time feeling sympathy for him being left alone. The only reason he was handcuffed in the first place was a direct result of his poor actions, when he tried to beat a fellow survivor from his own camp, with the apparent intent to fatally injure him. It's unfortunate, and the attempt was made to save him, but him being in a position where he was unable to join the group in retreat was his own fault. However, I'm sure he'll manage to survive to create more problems going forward. Sadly, this sort of "twist" is an anti-incentive for me to watch more. By all rights the character should have died on that roof, but because of the drama, he'll come back angry instead. Somehow.

From a utilitarian point of view (one which it is hard to avoid in such a tight survival situation these people are in) the likely thing for them to do would have been to euthanize him. He's a danger to the group, and he has no compassion for his fellow survivors. He even states his belief that he is of a different "kind". It's a miracle he didn't get them killed here, and his intent to keep trying to get them killed is a liability. I assume Chuck has foreknowledge, because his defense of this character's obvious positive attributes were not demonstrated in this episode. In the situation the camp is in, it's possible he's simply a necessary evil who hadn't tipped over the edge before being sent out on this mission. It's impossible to know whether he's actually skilled in any way essential to their survival, and in fact only demonstrates here that his judgment leaves him quite the opposite.

I think the primary reason they put up with him is his brother Daryl. Daryl more than makes up for Merle's deficiencies when it comes to group survival, because he's the nice Dixon brother who helps everyone else out with bringing fresh game to the group and other things. Package deal and all that.

[Sir Will]

The problem is the zombies aren't rotting, Rick wakes up about two months since the outbreak and many of the zombies he encounters look insanely fresh, like they were just turned.

Wait, 2 months!? How the fuck...?