Babylon 5: "Soul Mates"

[Yukaphile]

Well, look at that young couple. They were willing to break it. I also don't accept "cultural relativism" even in the context of planet of hats sci-fi engaged in during this period.

[FaxModem1]

Well, look at that young couple. They were willing to break it. I also don't accept "cultural relativism" even in the context of planet of hats sci-fi engaged in during this period.

They looked to Vir for a solution, hiding behind one part of their family from the wrath of another part. It was only when Vir had no solution that they were nearing out of options before Londo presented them a solution that was acceptable to their noble families.

Again, it's how the game is played in such a society. Because one generation's foibles can utterly destroy a legacy. You may not care that you're the downfall of your great house, but you might consigning your siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, etc., to all sorts of problems and opening them up to all sorts of new avenues of attack from more violent and ruthless families. Isn't that selfish of you?

[FaxModem1]

Let's ask Robb Stark how bucking the arranged marriage in trade for alliance ended for his family who supported him when he went after love: instead of duty


youtu.be/ZnxvUuSzbMI

Oh, that's right, it got him, his mother, his wife, and his unborn child killed.

Bucking the system without regard for who you're hurting or pissing off can have consequences, who knew?

[Yukaphile]

This is pathetic that you are idiots are defending not being able to marry who you fucking want.

[Mecha82]

You are thinking this from point of view of our modern day western society while forgetting that Centauri Republic mirrors Roman Empire. And even when Roman Empire fell practice of political marriages and arranged marriages in general didn't go away for long time. Both royal families and noble families followed that tradition. Reputation, political power and wealth were more important than concept of love. They were practical and they had to be in order to secure that they families would survive.

[FaxModem1]

This is pathetic that you are idiots are defending not being able to marry who you fucking want.

No. We're pointing out why said characters do what they have to to survive. For instance, in the TV show Downton Abbey, why didn't Thomas just tell everyone he was gay? Because the laws and customs of the time would have him thrown in gaol. Going against social trends is dangerous if you don't have people, money, or power to defend you. And even then, such things can still ruin you.

I'm a homosexual male who served in the military during DADT. I know a lot better than you do about what it's like to be constrained about what you're allowed to do instead of what you want to do.

Was it a stupid law based on traditions, bigotry, and the power of the elite? Yes.

Was it frustrating, stressful, and choking? Yes.

Would there have been all sorts of consequences if I had come out? Yes.

Did my service and duty allow me to rally more people to allowing gay people to serve, thus changing the mindset and helping bring about social change? Yes. I surprised quite a few of my USAF colleagues when my enlistment ended and I came out, and they had to reevaluate themselves.

Did I change quite a few people's minds by having them confront the fact that I was both a veteran and a gay man? Yes. I've had more than one conversation showing that they needed to think about where they were.

Am I in anyway defending DADT for existing? No. I'm pointing out that in such a system, you gotta do what you can to survive.

So, you'll understand if I understand where Londo is coming from a bit more than you do.

Now, Londo, Vir, Timov, etc, are all in a society where they have to face that kind of pressure daily. The reason is, the Centauri Republic is steeped in tradition for the sake of power and wealth of the elites. Their history is based off fighting a rival species for dominance of the planet, and having to be led by elites to survive.
Then they just had cultural inertia. They never had the equivalent of the Enlightenment or the French Revolution to make them more egalitarian, so while their technology advanced, they didn't advance socially.

Emperors Vir Cotto and Dius Vintari should bring about a lot of social change. But they're the Emperors, they can do that. If you're not the all powerful emperor, you have to play ball in order to survive, and acquire advantages over others.

Unless the system reforms majorly, that's how the system works, and that's how you survive. Otherwise you face the problems of being an outcast in an intolerant society, whether it be thrown into an asylum, jail, being disowned, poisoned, your family being killed, etc.

We aren't defending it, we're understanding why the characters have to do it in order to survive.

[Mickey_Rat15]

This is pathetic that you are idiots are defending not being able to marry who you fucking want.

I think they are empathizing with the characters and their cultural circumstances. One can understand what motivates the characters and what actions are logical to them without approving of the system they are trying to live in.

We live in culture that does not have these types of expectations about marriage. It is rather easy to say you would defy convention, when no one in real life would try enforce such a convention on you.

[Yukaphile]

I think a society forcing two people who are not in love to marry, with all the consequences that entails, is pretty bad. This is not something you can defend with cultural relativism.

[G-Man]

I think a society forcing two people who are not in love to marry, with all the consequences that entails, is pretty bad. This is not something you can defend with cultural relativism.

No one is defending society doing this; we are defending the people who decide to obey their society rather than rebel against it.

[G-Man]

A few thoughts:

Londo actually did marry once for... if not love, infatuation. She was a dancer. He mentions it in (I think) the episode "A Voice in the Wilderness." While he implies to Garibaldi that she was a shrew and it was a mistake, JMS has said that the marriage was quickly annulled because it was considered inappropriate.

In the "Legions of Fire" book trilogy, it is revealed that Londo had deduced that Timov is the one who saved his life and that is a factor in why he kept her on. Sort of spoils the moral of the episode, in my opinion (and it was written by Peter David, so one can't use different authors as an excuse).

I think it is too bad that Chuck did not mention the final scene, where it is implied that Delenn is having her first period. That's because while it may seem to be a throwaway joke, it does imply that her reproductive system might be human interfertile (as menstruation is part of human biology and (as Delenn is not accustomed to it) apparently not part of Minbari biology).