DIS - New Eden

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Many of them would still be here if the ''One True God'' people never tried to exterminate them. The Conquistadors ring a bell? That makes me think too... namely how much much blood has been spilled for the grace of an all-loving god.

Speaking as a religious person of those faith, it disgusts me the level of violence and bloodshed that has been done in the name of a faith of peace. The actions of the Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, and conquistidors are a dark chapter of human history. But I do think as a historian that it's a joke as an argument against religion. Genghis Khan, the Soviet Union, the Huns, Nazis, and so on show many people ready to do every bit the same and worse in the name of other ideologies.

It's an argument against religious hypocrisy but the simple fact is that history doesn't show religious violence as particularly different from any other form of violence. We are a barbaric species, according to Captain Kirk, and have yet to find a Sarek who manages to tame our inner passions.

Oh certainly. I think colonial studies will be more telling of the institutional baring that causes harmonic disruption than a take on the irrationality of religion. Religion is inherently a reflexive mechanism, though I wouldn't discount its intrinsic influence on things, perhaps in an enabling fashion against empiricism.

[Worffan101]

Speaking as an atheist, I must confess that I do believe that fandom--and its derived form, religion--has the potential for great evil, and that letting fandom/religion define or control society is inherently bad for society, be it "America is a Christian nation" nonsense or "Worship the way the government says or die". I respect the right of every thinking creature to believe in whatever deity/deities or lack thereof that they feel like, but that right ends the moment someone else's rights and beliefs begin, and theocracy is inherently oppressive and evil. The New Eden settlement is under the control of a repressive religion that clearly and explicitly exercises social pressure to suppress dissent, and this is what we see in 45 minutes with them; having experience with small-town Christianity in America, that social pressure is the tip of a VERY nasty iceberg of physical and emotional abuse, social status obsession, corrupt hierarchy, rape, misogyny, racism, and totalitarian religious dominance, and just because we don't see it on our casual visit doesn't mean it isn't there.

Pike absolutely should have said "This is what we, the Federation, know. We are attempting to find out more about that red angel creature. We will let you know when we do find out more, with complete openness and transparency so that you may analyze the data for yourselves". Greater societal transparency is, broadly speaking, a good thing.

[CharlesPhipps]

Speaking as an atheist, I must confess that I do believe that fandom--and its derived form, religion--has the potential for great evil, and that letting fandom/religion define or control society is inherently bad for society, be it "America is a Christian nation" nonsense or "Worship the way the government says or die".

I think that religion basically amounts to "what people believe" and is not actually nearly as specific as either religious or nonreligious people amount to. You can and people have made religions with no supernatural elements to them after all (Confuscianism, certain Buddhism branches, Pantheism, and so on). I think it's basically a fundamental element of humanity and merely the forms change rather than the generalities.

But I 100% agree with you on Pike. These people believed they were the last humans in the universe. They deserved to know otherwise. Also, McCoy and Pulaski would also be able to point out they don't have the genetic diversity to sustain their population forever.

I respect the right of every thinking creature to believe in whatever deity/deities or lack thereof that they feel like, but that right ends the moment someone else's rights and beliefs begin, and theocracy is inherently oppressive and evil.

Tibet might disagree with you before the atheist communist country came in, ripped away the rights of the people, and then turned it into a giant prison camp. I say this as someone who thinks theocracy is a horrifyingly bad idea because government and religion should not mix. They are of different Magisteriums and can only dilute/corrupt one or the other.

The New Eden settlement is under the control of a repressive religion that clearly and explicitly exercises social pressure to suppress dissent, and this is what we see in 45 minutes with them; having experience with small-town Christianity in America, that social pressure is the tip of a VERY nasty iceberg of physical and emotional abuse, social status obsession, corrupt hierarchy, rape, misogyny, racism, and totalitarian religious dominance, and just because we don't see it on our casual visit doesn't mean it isn't there.

Having also grown up in small town America, I find that religion is rarely the source of these kind of rural abuses--merely a cover for them. As we've seen with numerous other hierarchy driven rural societies, communist nations for example, it's just people are assholes when they have authority over others.

But in this case, I think we're meant to take the New Eden settlement as more like hippies and less than a fundamentalist cult. The poor scientist guy is being treated like Doc Brown, not burned at the stake. Michael also is treated as irritating rather than a heretic when she says Science is her God.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Well they've been there for 250 years.

[Antiboyscout]

And look where they're at today. Makes ya think.

Many of them would still be here if the ''One True God'' people never tried to exterminate them. The Conquistadors ring a bell?

That makes me think too... namely how much much blood has been spilled for the grace of an all-loving god.

No, a couple of them might be around maybe. Why are you defending the Inca and the Aztecs, two god-king empires that literally performed human sacrifice?

[Antiboyscout]

that social pressure is the tip of a VERY nasty iceberg of physical and emotional abuse, social status obsession, corrupt hierarchy, rape, misogyny, racism, and totalitarian religious dominance, and just because we don't see it on our casual visit doesn't mean it isn't there.

Are you describing Christians or Hollywood?

[CharlesPhipps]

Well they've been there for 250 years.

Let's just say that I hope none of the people in that church had hemophilia. It's going to look like some of those Fundamentalist Mormon compounds genetically for an ironic (or it apropos?) comparison.

No, a couple of them might be around maybe. Why are you defending the Inca and the Aztecs, two god-king empires that literally performed human sacrifice?

Speaking as a historian, the conquistadors didn't actually even overthrow the Aztecs. While the plague was nasty, it was actually an alliance of heroic Native peoples who overthrew the Aztecs with Cortez as their Token Evil Teammate.

The Aztecs were the worst of of the American peoples. It's just Cortez was House Bolton and stabbed his allies in the back to enslave them. The heroism of those people fighting to end tyranny is forgotten, though.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Well they've been there for 250 years.

Let's just say that I hope none of the people in that church had hemophilia. It's going to look like some of those Fundamentalist Mormon compounds genetically for an ironic (or it apropos?) comparison.

No, a couple of them might be around maybe. Why are you defending the Inca and the Aztecs, two god-king empires that literally performed human sacrifice?

Speaking as a historian, the conquistadors didn't actually even overthrow the Aztecs. While the plague was nasty, it was actually an alliance of heroic Native peoples who overthrew the Aztecs with Cortez as their Token Evil Teammate.

The Aztecs were the worst of of the American peoples. It's just Cortez was House Bolton and stabbed his allies in the back to enslave them. The heroism of those people fighting to end tyranny is forgotten, though.

So was 11,000 a constant figure or did they have to build up to that?

[CharlesPhipps]

So was 11,000 a constant figure or did they have to build up to that?

Cortez's expedition reads like bad fanfic.

"You wash up on a strange land and magically find a couple of guys who speak the local language, your language, and hate the locals for enslaving them."

"The natives initially mistake you for gods because of a prophecy you superficially resemble."

"You burn your ships so your men can't leave and they find this a dramatic inspiring gesture than something to gut you for."

"You are adopted by the King who protects you from the wrath of the locals until you can take him prisoner and hold him hostage."

"You find an army ready and willing to join you in overthrowing the largest in the world at the time."

"Disease you are immune to leaves everyone weak enough you can take it over."

God may have not been on Cortez's side but the Dungeonmaster was.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I was actually replying from an outdated script of this page in which your responses to me and ABS were separate posts. I was actually trying to reply to the hemophilia one and was referring to the colonists which I believe I heard amounted to 11,000 people.

There's probably no context that makes that make sense why I asked that, but so here we are today this moment.

I did pay attention though in 8th grade civics and got extra credit for naming Pizarro as the one who defeated the Incas.