Mecha82 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:21 pm
Brand new characters that people hate because they only want to see they old favorites. They are kinds forced to use old characters and same plots because that's what audience wants. See how badly pretty much every brand new character in sequel trilogy have been taken and how much some people hate them to point of harassing people playing those characters in movies.
This seems disingenuous to me. Do you think there're people out there who think that the new characters are bad but, simultaneously, enjoyed the plot being a retread?
There's a crowd there for explosions, flashy visuals and big emotion who don't care about plot specifics (so they won't care how original or unoriginal the plot is). There's a crowd there for nostalgia (they like seeing old faces and iconic images, but someone who popped for R2-D2's few minutes of screen-time hardly cares about seeing BB-8 recycle his sub-plot). There's also a crowd there for the new stuff who, perplexingly, don't seem to have felt sort-changed by the reversals of characterisation (Hux), the replaying of character arcs (Finn), the abandonment of mysteries (Rey's parents, the Knights of Ren, Snoke) but if they're there for new stuff, then recycling the old plot is hardly going to be a must for them as well.
So, who does a soft reboot actually appeal to, who wouldn't also have been just as happy with a continuation? I can't think of anyone or any kind of perspective that makes sense apart from the companies involved (who prefer to keep things safe).
Yukaphile wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:53 pm
No, it is absolutely true the action fanatics and tits crowd are NOT sci-fi fans if they haven't checked out other sci-fi material, not even books, that are not all explosions and boobs and mindless spectacle.
Wasn't attacking you. I was mainly thinking of the larger millions who consume these movies now. Of those, how many are actually sci-fi fans? I doubt very little.
Hey, I'm pretty sure that I'm more pessimistic on the Disney-era Star Wars movies than Mecha82, but I agree that you were coming across as patronizing, eyerolls or not.
Yukaphile wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:53 pm
It is what clearspira keeps harping on, that being a nerd is as much an ostracized position as ever, despite blatantly transparent mainstreaming into pop culture to give people the illusion it is.
I grew up in a conservative religious circle where my early glimmers of interest in Dungeons and Dragons was seen as a possible vector for Satanic attack, and few of the kids I knew outside of such circles were at all into it. Being ostracized for your interests sucks. I'm heartily glad that RPGs as a hobby have been getting more popular thanks to podcasts, actual plays, and releases of games with simple rules that are easy to bring new players into.
If some people are playing RPGs less "seriously" than me (and probably many playing a lot more seriously), that's fine so long as no one's hurting anyone else. Gatekeeping a hobby or a franchise, or getting upset at people who enjoy it in a different way than you is the way to destroy it.
Yukaphile wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:53 pm
Call me a bully if you want. I don't like having to share this franchise with all those other people who love this franchise for the wrong reasons if it meant they had to burn the previous material to the ground.
I don't know how to square this idea of franchise purism with your previous comments that Star Wars should be released to the public domain. If that happened, the people who created Star Wars-based works (outside of totally unpaid work for personal interest) would have to be even more sensitive of what the public wants, because hey there's always another guy/girl with an idea to adapt the property. Judging by what I've seen online, you'd probably get still more action... and a fair bit of slashfic .
Yukaphile wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:53 pm
And look at it this way. Legends fans are the true nerds now. They keep dreaming to see Legends material adapted, like Winter here. God knows I DON'T know want that. But they do. Problem is they will NEVER get a TV show or movie dedicated to them, even as an adaptation like Harry Potter.
I have to admit, the teenager in me would still be delighted if we got an adaptation of New Jedi Order. Despite being a love it or hate it series for many fans, I always had a soft spot for a series that tried to take SW in a new direction (and contains the character arc for a personal favorite, Tahiri Veila).
However, I have to point out that before the Disney buyout and reboot, we weren't getting Legends adaptations either. The books ran as their own framework, with some input to and from the Star Wars video games. Adapting the Post-Endor timeline of Legends might have worked 10-20 years ago, but due to age of the actors, by the mid 2010s it couldn't be done without either story changes or filling in the Thrawn Trilogy/Truce at Bakura/etc. works with animation. I don't consider the reboot to have deprived us of anything except continuation of Legends books. And between the writing staff's inability to kill off the OT heroes and reuse of PT plots for Legacy of the Force, I thought those were going downhill even at the time.
A big problem is that the new films are being made for the international (and especially Chinese) market, which is the norm for tentpole blockbusters these days. Legends doesn't really exist outside the Angloshere and Europe.
...for space is wide, and good friends are too few.
Taking traditional nerd activities more seriously? I still don't buy it. If it leads to less judgment and more tolerance, that's amazing. And I'm sorry if I came across as condescending, really. But I simply hate that Legends was shoved aside merely for the mindless moviegoing audiences. Mark Hamill goes on about this stuff, but he doesn't actually hold the moviegoing audience responsible for not demanding higher standards. He sees it at as escapism, but if that's true, that means people will be more disposed toward shutting off their brains. And you can't hold something to a higher standard if you are not willing to question it. And yes, I'll admit I was biased right off the bat, because the decanonizing meant I would not be willing to give the new canon a fair shake. But I still, to quote the characters themselves, had a very "bad feeling" about it even before Force Awakens hit theaters. But that they made such poor decisions that were blatantly about corporatizing Star Wars in a way not even George did which only mattered for the bottom line, nothing else, kinda validated that in my mind. It felt so great. I saw articles from 2014 or so that said a multiverse would be the way to go. But again, those in charge don't care about nerd stuff because majority of people out there don't, movies are just "stupid fun," and with the new generation coming up accepting this as the new norm, that is just getting worse and worse as a product of time. I know somebody born in 1998. He loves Independence Day: Resurgence more than the first one, really.
Now granted, giving us new Legends material, which is what the fans had politely asked for with that billboard (not even hurling venom or cussing like online) that they had found amusing (at a time when Chuck Wendig still worked with them, mind you), is a good first step, like that recent comic. But I will remain suspicious of them for a long time, even if they release more Legends material, because they burned bridges with me that badly in 2014, and paid the price for their arrogance. I can admit I'm probably not being rational here, but when are feelings, especially for a story world you love, supposed to be rational, at all? Never were. And it is true that there's a huge element of commercialism that's holding them back. Lucas was a businessman, he was never a sell-out, though, as far as I can tell. He always cared about the art, and let others pick up where he did not, and there were a few limits, but today, there are even more limits (mainly he wanted to tell the prequels himself, and wouldn't let them tell stories in that era till they began hitting theaters). Look at what they plan to release for (likely) Legends fans? More KOTOR material, to beat that dead horse until it's molested (to paraphrase Chuck)... because Lord knows that is a proven success, while despite harsh criticism from fans (if not elitist critics) towards Last Jedi and what they've done lately, they are still hesitant to return to that world where Luke is who we all want him to be, or adapt it to be the big screen, because that is a big risk. And they're professional gamblers now, Lucas said it best himself. They won't take a risk at losing money. Thus, any new Legends material will be pandering to me, nothing more, nothing less. That's why I feel as if Star Wars died in 2014. For many reasons, but there you go.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
mathewgsmith wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:09 pm
A big problem is that the new films are being made for the international (and especially Chinese) market, which is the norm for tentpole blockbusters these days. Legends doesn't really exist outside the Angloshere and Europe.
Hasn't really amounted to much of a problem as of yet though has it? Concern, sure. But movie creators would start losing their shit if the studios started mangling their films up that much.
To me, Legends is like the way the Harry Potter novels were as the basis for the films.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
mathewgsmith wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:09 pm
A big problem is that the new films are being made for the international (and especially Chinese) market, which is the norm for tentpole blockbusters these days. Legends doesn't really exist outside the Angloshere and Europe.
Hasn't really amounted to much of a problem as of yet though has it? Concern, sure. But movie creators would start losing their shit if the studios started mangling their films up that much.
It would be a problem for attempts to make the movies in the Legends setting I mean. I apologise that my phrasing was ambiguous.
...for space is wide, and good friends are too few.
Yukaphile wrote: ↑Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:27 am
To me, Legends is like the way the Harry Potter novels were as the basis for the films.
...But the relationship is exactly the opposite. I tend to agree with Chuck's view that a movie should be enjoyable as a movie, and if you have to go read background material to understand what's going on, the creator has failed. The OT and PT films have a narrative sequence, and any material published outside that can enrich and add to the story, but shouldn't be necessary to understand it. I'd hold the sequel trilogy to the same standard.
With Harry Potter, Rowling published a popular series of children's books first, and successfully got them turned into big screen adaptations of the work, which from my understanding were more or less faithful (Harry Potter was also a no-no in the household growing up).
Did the Harry Potter movies do that? You can enjoy them as a movie or as a book.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
I was mainly thinking of the larger millions who consume these movies now. Of those, how many are actually sci-fi fans? I doubt very little.
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