VOY - Alice

[Kendrakirai]

The Undine (I know it's from STAR TREK: ONLINE but I prefer it to their official name) wanted to purge all non-Undine life from the universe out of disgust. At least, that was Kes' impression. However, it seems like they calmed down and only wanted to deal with the Federation SPECIFICALLY because they helped the Borg against the Undine.

Chakotay was correct that, bad first impression aside, maybe they should have expended a bit more effort in talking to the Undine before writing them off as worse than the Objectively EvilTM Borg.

I'm wondering if the Undine initially believed that all non-Undine life in the universe was the Borg and thus a threat to them, leading to the first impression that Kes got. After doing more research they realize this isn't the case and calmed down as you say, only going after the Federation because it's members aided the Borg against them.

And there’s that part, too. *They attacked Voyager and it’s crew first* just because of proximity to the Borg. The very reason they developed the specialized nanoprobes was to save poor, dumb, Harry. If not for that, Voyager would have never gotten involved. Never had any reason to get involved, even! But nope, Steve just had to smack the guy who is very clearly not a Borg around. *Thanks, Steve.*

[Durandal_1707]

The Undine (I know it's from STAR TREK: ONLINE but I prefer it to their official name) wanted to purge all non-Undine life from the universe out of disgust. At least, that was Kes' impression. However, it seems like they calmed down and only wanted to deal with the Federation SPECIFICALLY because they helped the Borg against the Undine.

Chakotay was correct that, bad first impression aside, maybe they should have expended a bit more effort in talking to the Undine before writing them off as worse than the Objectively EvilTM Borg.

I'm wondering if the Undine initially believed that all non-Undine life in the universe was the Borg and thus a threat to them, leading to the first impression that Kes got. After doing more research they realize this isn't the case and calmed down as you say, only going after the Federation because it's members aided the Borg against them.

That was the impression I got.

[MightyDavidson]

The Undine (I know it's from STAR TREK: ONLINE but I prefer it to their official name) wanted to purge all non-Undine life from the universe out of disgust. At least, that was Kes' impression. However, it seems like they calmed down and only wanted to deal with the Federation SPECIFICALLY because they helped the Borg against the Undine.

Chakotay was correct that, bad first impression aside, maybe they should have expended a bit more effort in talking to the Undine before writing them off as worse than the Objectively EvilTM Borg.

I'm wondering if the Undine initially believed that all non-Undine life in the universe was the Borg and thus a threat to them, leading to the first impression that Kes got. After doing more research they realize this isn't the case and calmed down as you say, only going after the Federation because it's members aided the Borg against them.

And there’s that part, too. *They attacked Voyager and it’s crew first* just because of proximity to the Borg. The very reason they developed the specialized nanoprobes was to save poor, dumb, Harry. If not for that, Voyager would have never gotten involved. Never had any reason to get involved, even! But nope, Steve just had to smack the guy who is very clearly not a Borg around. *Thanks, Steve.*

I ship that was, for all they knew, possibly aiding and abetting the creatures who were very clearly trying to exterminate them. Had Voyager minded it's own business at this point, saved Harry and gotten the hell out of there the Undine would've defeated the Borg and gone about their business when they realized that not all Delta Quadrant species were Borg. After all we know they were still active in normal space after their encounter with Voyager and there's no evidence that they were massacring species left right and center. Instead Voyager aided and abetted the Borg against them, thus confirming the Federation as a threat against them.

[Kendrakirai]

The Undine (I know it's from STAR TREK: ONLINE but I prefer it to their official name) wanted to purge all non-Undine life from the universe out of disgust. At least, that was Kes' impression. However, it seems like they calmed down and only wanted to deal with the Federation SPECIFICALLY because they helped the Borg against the Undine.

Chakotay was correct that, bad first impression aside, maybe they should have expended a bit more effort in talking to the Undine before writing them off as worse than the Objectively EvilTM Borg.

I'm wondering if the Undine initially believed that all non-Undine life in the universe was the Borg and thus a threat to them, leading to the first impression that Kes got. After doing more research they realize this isn't the case and calmed down as you say, only going after the Federation because it's members aided the Borg against them.

And there’s that part, too. *They attacked Voyager and it’s crew first* just because of proximity to the Borg. The very reason they developed the specialized nanoprobes was to save poor, dumb, Harry. If not for that, Voyager would have never gotten involved. Never had any reason to get involved, even! But nope, Steve just had to smack the guy who is very clearly not a Borg around. *Thanks, Steve.*

I ship that was, for all they knew, possibly aiding and abetting the creatures who were very clearly trying to exterminate them. Had Voyager minded it's own business at this point, saved Harry and gotten the hell out of there the Undine would've defeated the Borg and gone about their business when they realized that not all Delta Quadrant species were Borg. After all we know they were still active in normal space after their encounter with Voyager and there's no evidence that they were massacring species left right and center. Instead Voyager aided and abetted the Borg against them, thus confirming the Federation as a threat against them.

The thing is, they *couldn’t* have saved Harry without helping the Borg. They couldn’t replicate enough nanoprobes in time. That’s part of the reason they contacted them in the first place instead of keeping the weapon as a bargaining chip for if the Borg decided to grab them.

The other reason being that 8472 were wanted everything dead. And they can blow up *planets* with only a small handful of ships. As bad as the Borg are, they can be defeated with reasonably conventional means, while 8472 was *so* powerful even the Borg could only *slow them down* by sacrificing millions or billions of drones - *people* - to take out *individual ships*.

This is kind of like trusting that the 300 foot rampaging fire breathing dragon will just go away once it’s handled that nasty rat problem on Maple street.

[MightyDavidson]

The Undine (I know it's from STAR TREK: ONLINE but I prefer it to their official name) wanted to purge all non-Undine life from the universe out of disgust. At least, that was Kes' impression. However, it seems like they calmed down and only wanted to deal with the Federation SPECIFICALLY because they helped the Borg against the Undine.

Chakotay was correct that, bad first impression aside, maybe they should have expended a bit more effort in talking to the Undine before writing them off as worse than the Objectively EvilTM Borg.

I'm wondering if the Undine initially believed that all non-Undine life in the universe was the Borg and thus a threat to them, leading to the first impression that Kes got. After doing more research they realize this isn't the case and calmed down as you say, only going after the Federation because it's members aided the Borg against them.

And there’s that part, too. *They attacked Voyager and it’s crew first* just because of proximity to the Borg. The very reason they developed the specialized nanoprobes was to save poor, dumb, Harry. If not for that, Voyager would have never gotten involved. Never had any reason to get involved, even! But nope, Steve just had to smack the guy who is very clearly not a Borg around. *Thanks, Steve.*

I ship that was, for all they knew, possibly aiding and abetting the creatures who were very clearly trying to exterminate them. Had Voyager minded it's own business at this point, saved Harry and gotten the hell out of there the Undine would've defeated the Borg and gone about their business when they realized that not all Delta Quadrant species were Borg. After all we know they were still active in normal space after their encounter with Voyager and there's no evidence that they were massacring species left right and center. Instead Voyager aided and abetted the Borg against them, thus confirming the Federation as a threat against them.

The thing is, they *couldn’t* have saved Harry without helping the Borg. They couldn’t replicate enough nanoprobes in time. That’s part of the reason they contacted them in the first place instead of keeping the weapon as a bargaining chip for if the Borg decided to grab them.

The other reason being that 8472 were wanted everything dead. And they can blow up *planets* with only a small handful of ships. As bad as the Borg are, they can be defeated with reasonably conventional means, while 8472 was *so* powerful even the Borg could only *slow them down* by sacrificing millions or billions of drones - *people* - to take out *individual ships*.

This is kind of like trusting that the 300 foot rampaging fire breathing dragon will just go away once it’s handled that nasty rat problem on Maple street.

The fact that they're not actively slaying everything they come across they next time they're seen on Voyager kinda proves that the Undine *don't* want everything dead, aside from the Borg who'd attacked the Undine in the first place. As for Harry they could have put him in a stasis field until they did have enough of the nanoprobes replicated, then used those nanoprobes to save Harry. An intelligent solution that doesn't require them to commit grand treason by aiding and abetting the Federation's most dire enemy, an enemy who's attacked them on numerous occasions and made no bones about their desire to eradicate the Federation and all societies adjacent to the Federation. Instead, because Janeway is impatient, she hands the Borg a weapon that could allow them to assimilate people faster.

That's kind of like handing an incredibly dangerous weapon to a large gang of psycho killers and trusting them not to slaughter entire cities with it, despite openly declaring their desire to slaughter entire cities with it, cause they totally promised to use it on the guys who accidentally hurt somebody you like.

[Durandal_1707]

As bad as the Borg are, they can be defeated with reasonably conventional means

Say what? I can't think of a single time the Borg were defeated by conventional means. The only thing that consistently works against the Borg is deus ex machina via writer fiat.

Q Who: Rescued by Q

BOBW: Data hacks into the cube via Locutus, assisted by a minor miracle

I, Borg: Run away

Descent: Tricked into flying into a solar flare

First Contact: Magical Picard psychic knowledge never seen before or since

The only thing conventional means ever seem to get anyone in Borg conflicts is massive graveyards of destroyed Federation ships. At least they had a weapon that worked against 8472, that wouldn't be instantly adapted to after first use like pretty much anything you use against the Borg.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

[Durandal_1707]

Two things about that:

1) Did we ever see that work more than once? The phaser worked on the Borg that invaded Engineering in "Q Who" too, the first time.

2) That didn't defeat the Borg, it only took out one of them. The rest of them were still very much in control of the ship. The only thing that ultimately saved them was another Hail Mary from Data, again. Data's dead now, by the way...

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Two things about that:

1) Did we ever see that work more than once? The phaser worked on the Borg that invaded Engineering in "Q Who" too, the first time.

2) That didn't defeat the Borg, it only took out one of them. The rest of them were still very much in control of the ship. The only thing that ultimately saved them was another Hail Mary from Data, again. Data's dead now, by the way...

Well I personally called into question (while posting that) why they didn't just replicate guns.

I'm aware of the Borg's adaptive capabilities which has been brought up specifically in other episodes as well as the movie no less, but it just seems we're led to believe their adaptive capabilities are energy related given that they adapt particularly by frequency modulation and we haven't really seen them do it otherwise, somewhat the contrary.

They didn't defeat the Borg, but we know that 8472 was going to, or at least prove to be enough of a nuisance to the point where they collectively decided to let hooman Voyager have a head start through their nebula.

[clearspira]

*Ahem*

The first Borg Picard guns down took a couple of shots. The second Borg Picard guns down took a whole magazine. They were already adapting and they were doing so consistent with how they adapt to phaser and phase pistol fire. Its there on-screen I don't know why people cannot see it.