The Brexit Election

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I think you might be able to make a better case against the confederate flag for what the argument is propositioning. It's not really a matter of patriotism equating to an empire, but the extent that it blinds people from a higher justice. Not to mention tribalistic nature that tends to characterize this sort of stuff, but you're really just deconstructing further stuff that's problematic more on condition than as an explicit rule.

Fascism is inexorably linked to nationalism for instance but I wouldn't go so far as talk as if they're reflexive for all intents and purposes.

[CmdrKing]

Oh not even that.

The US is an empire because of the genocide and militarism and holding of territories that can't participate in governance and in some cases literally aren't citizens. Y'know, that thing we still do in fact.

The flag-jizzing patriotism is good for the government's efforts to downplay or ignore these injustices, and it's frequency suggests they have been very successful

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I wouldn't not call the US an empire. People supporting the flag of their country is a very generic gesture though. There's more I feel to be said about discounting or rationalizing such atrocities than there is about being nationalist.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Part of every population is going to realistically weigh political ramifications based on proper speculation of how a government conducts its business while another part is going to cheer at the debate when they hear that their taxes are lowered or when their opponents are slammed with one-sided rhetoric.

[Admiral X]

Nigel Ferage managed to score an interview with Donald Trump today - and he endorsed Boris Johnson for PM whilst badmouthing the opposition.

I'm kind of curious why Nigel Ferage doesn't step up to the plate since he wants Brexit so bad himself.

Hmmm. Seems to me that non-empires could also have lots of patriotism. I think "Lots of patriotism" = "empire" is still less than logical.

Because it's just a really lame attempt to scare people away from supporting a position you don't like. Like saying that voting for Trump means you're racist.

[Darth Wedgius]

Hmmm. Seems to me that non-empires could also have lots of patriotism. I think "Lots of patriotism" = "empire" is still less than logical.

Because it's just a really lame attempt to scare people away from supporting a position you don't like. Like saying that voting for Trump means you're racist.

That could be, but I think it might be willful self-delusion in both cases. The whole, "I reject your reality and substitute my own," but meant seriously.

[Mecha82]

Let's be honest here. Neither you are any better unlike you like to pretend to be. Doing that is dishonest and just another way to say that you dismiss opposing views that don't fit your own so neither of you have any right to criticize others.

[CmdrKing]

Personally I'm more surprised that the good Admiral disagrees with either premise I presented ("Empires benefit from blind patriotism in their populous" and "The United States is more or less an Empire".)

I mean you can disagree with "excess patriotism should be viewed with suspicion", but given its usefulness to empires and imperial thinking, it's better thought of as circumstantial evidence: not damning in itself, but worthy of further investigation.

[Darth Wedgius]

Let's be honest here. Neither you are any better unlike you like to pretend to be. Doing that is dishonest and just another way to say that you dismiss opposing views that don't fit your own so neither of you have any right to criticize others.

If you can show where I've dismissed an opposing view simply because I didn't like it, feel free to point it out. Here I pointed out that patriotism is not exclusive to empires and therefore cannot be used as proof of an empire. I hope you can see the logic behind that, though I suspect you cannot.

Here you have indicated that we're just as bad (but haven't defined how), assumed that it is a way to dismiss opposing views (but don't give evidence or explain how), and then finish up with a tu quoque fallacy.

[Darth Wedgius]

Let's take this through baby steps.

clearspira wrote:

The amount of people who masturbate over your flag every July 4th would seem to suggest otherwise.

To which CmdrKing wrote:

That's how you know most Americans are extremely into empires, yes.

Not "it's suspicious." The statement was "That's how you know." And then CmdrKing tries to use her own definition of "empire." And CmdrKing even adds, "extremely into empires."

This may have just been carelessly worded, of course. It's only my suspicion that CmdrKing expected to be taken seriously, and further suspicion that she uses "reasoning" like this to support her views.