The Planned Star Wars Trilogy is Dead

[Yukaphile]

As I said in the other thread, the big problem is they're flooding the market, and it is pure fear-driven scrambling. Even with two years between movies, it strikes me as hard to maintain. Lucas needed three, and hell, the first needed more than that. If they went with three or four years, my God, then they could actually give Legends fans smaller side material to keep them happy past a popular game that's a proven success, as well as tweak their stories to make sense. But then, they probably thought, "The MCU did it, and George Lucas was originally winging it, we can too!" It's just... bleh! They're killing this franchise. KILLING IT.

[Mecha82]

You are just being over dramatic again. They aren't killing Star Wars and it won't die as franchise as long as new material is being made. Just because they might not make material that you like doesn't mean that they are killing franchise.

[Yukaphile]

Yes, because they burned bridges with me badly in 2014. They might eventually heal that damage, but it's going to take a long time, and their leadership approach does not impress me. Many fans also had those bridges burned in 2017. That you wanna pretend online complaints are somehow not indicative of the fans doesn't make it any less true. Last Jedi is divisive, and I have not forgotten the poor language they used in describing Legends that gave ammo to the fans who are Legends haters, because let's be clear, Star Wars fans are toxic. Lots of passionate people all in one place, and given how large this franchise is, that's a recipe for disaster. And then they just sneered at that very formal and polite billboard petition. No slinging of mud or profanity like online. That was back when that asshole, Chuck Wendig was still working for them. Now they released an older comic. Well, great. We got an online game that's a proven success, and an older comic. And they keep bringing older Legends characters into new canon. Really, do you see the problem? They're trapped by fear, wanting to evolve the brand, but wanting to keep it the same. Do you think that system, especially with the decline of the modern movie theater, can ever sustain itself? Really, they just hurt me so badly, and gave so much ammo to snobbish fans, that I don't know if I'll ever trust them, because I'll need validation before I do. In a way, Last Jedi was validation, because it proved my suspicions were right back in 2014. I do like the idea of the post-Endor canon world doing something new, but then that's a paradox because that's where the Legends bashing gets the worst. While anything they adapt into new canon from the Old Republic era is going to be mostly the same, because they don't wanna rock the boat. So what is the point? Do something new! Give us a Revan that's a black woman! Make the Exile a Latino male. And change the endings, so they ended differently. Again, they don't see this as a world and art. They see it as a job, a business, and a way to... OMG, I hate saying this, but... a way to put liberal values into their story. I hate making it sound like it's a deliberate agenda, but really, that's all you have left from people who are not nerds, who are just corporate cronies. The world is being shredded by greed, and it's just... very heartbreaking to see.

[AquaReggie]

Yes, because they burned bridges with me badly in 2014. They might eventually heal that damage, but it's going to take a long time, and their leadership approach does not impress me. Many fans also had those bridges burned in 2017. That you wanna pretend online complaints are somehow not indicative of the fans doesn't make it any less true. Last Jedi is divisive, and I have not forgotten the poor language they used in describing Legends that gave ammo to the fans who are Legends haters, because let's be clear, Star Wars fans are toxic.

Honest question, since I may have missed an earlier discussion - have you read anything from the NuEU? You've been pretty vocal about refusing to check out NuTrek.

If not, I find this rhetoric of Lucas/Disney and Star Trek somehow owing you and needing to build up trust to be more or less pointless - if you have a hateboner for the newest incarnations of said franchises and never explore them, by definition the management will never "heal that damage".

Now they released an older comic. Well, great. We got an online game that's a proven success, and an older comic. And they keep bringing older Legends characters into new canon. Really, do you see the problem?

Actually, no. No I don't. I used to be more hung up on exact timelines and canonicity (and to some extent the massive sprawl of retcons and alt universes in Big Two comics turns me off), but I've realized that taking the best elements (or even just the ones that fit a new creator's idea for a story) and remixing them is part of how fiction has been since time immemorial. The trope namer for TVTropes "Word of Dante" is an example of how a single work affected the Italian language and basically the entire Christian concept of Hell and Heaven, to the point that many depictions of such are borrowing more from Dante than they are from Bible.

I guess, help me understand your position here, because despite all the threads I still find it confusing. It's bad if Thrawn is ported over to the new continuity because that's "stealing", but you personally would also prefer that The Thrawn Trilogy not be adapted, because it would be inevitably ruined? If Legends isn't allowed to be changed or adapted, how does that leave us with anything except a stagnant Legends canon that tries to stuff more and more content into the remaining unfilled space in the Clone Wars, Rebellion, and New Republic eras? Or if they get tired of the stuffing, the logical place for the writers to go is the Old Republic that you've complained about as "pandering" to fans, because its the place where there's most freedom in the old EU.

[Yukaphile]

I have since walked back that position. I've already conceded DISCO Season 1 is so dead to me, it's the literal STD of the franchise that is worse than... all of Enterprise, TNG Season 1, and anything prior. But... Season 2 had improved. Others want me to change my views? Well, they're not helping when I've gone halfway, reevaluated Season 2, said it's better than Season 1 (which felt to me like a betrayal), and then they don't wanna elaborate on that. Confusing as hell.

Fans feel entitled. They don't owe me a thing. But I'll have a hard time trusting them again. I own that feeling.

Yeah, and where will the continuity go? It's gonna be shredded. You could just as easily insist "continuity will never be perfect" to not try to adhere to it, and indeed, those who do not say just that. I foresee so much splintering this series, it's gonna be hell. The post-Endor new canon will be different, good for them. There will be Old Republic and KOTOR adaptations, either to new canon or Legends, or both (as I've said, that does not work unless you're consistent, which I doubt they will be given the poor management), that shows the world prior to Endor is still the same old, same old (that's their approach, everything is a tired old rehash). Then what happens once they finally begin adapting Legends material like Winter wants? Same thing. They'll start with Thrawn (trust me, The Mandalorian will have Thrawn/Legends easter eggs, but it won't be Thrawn itself, it's not Legends, it's pandering to make money masquerading as "art"), and then pick and choose as they go. It's gonna be a mess. And I REMEMBER the damned poor language those in charge as well as people on this very forum used in regards to Legends. That "it's a mess," and that justifies the retcon/soft reboot/hard EU reboot. Maybe if you're gonna complain about a mess, sneer at it, you shouldn't be surrounded by clutter and slop in your living room? Just saying.

Most of these are just feelings, admittedly strawmans, of those in charge in the absence of any hard fact because Disney and Lucasfilm is being shady as hell, and based a lot on what the fans say, and worry over the future of this franchise. Lucas sold it to Disney. Why the hell didn't they put Legends into Creative Commons? Past wanting to hedge their bets, they don't want competition, even though that is a form of quality control. Because it's the way Disney operates. Building a monopoly of pure, cynical GREED. It's how many treat it as the evil Empire. I want Creative Commons for Legends. Let the fans have fun with it. But now that Last Jedi burned so many bridges, in comes the Legends pandering. It seems "hedging their bets" paid off, because a world that's an alternative to Last Jedi with Luke and the others is now insanely popular, even if some only barely know about it, or vaguely recall reading it. Some would claim it's deliberate, but it shows their approach is schizophrenic. Do you think that system can be sustained forever?

[Yukaphile]

Make no mistake, there is legitimate criticism past my own ADMITTED confirmation biases. And it's because I have a contradiction in both caring about people, and disliking most people.

Human nature, man.

[Yukaphile]

Keep this in mind when you talk to me. You're calling the Revenge of the Sith novel a mess. It's what those in charge have done and said too. The novel that fixed most of the plot holes and dialogue issues, that no longer matters by those in charge (Lucas and everyone else since), while the inferior movie is a part of the "new canon."

[Yukaphile]

When people on this forum (like Mecha82) or those in charge treat Legends, a world from 1977 to 2014, as something that's not a single path branching forward (even if a loosely disconnected one), and therefore you can fully justify cherry-picking elements from it, don't expect me to be happy. I've disliked reboots for a long time now. I've disliked where Hollywood is going, and that the appeal is becoming narrower, they are being locked into the path to self-destruction, and the art is suffering. And let's be clear. I'm probably most upset by the 2014 decision because it's the end of an era, the end of... well, not "childhood" but for lack of a better word I'll say that. And that's never easy to face. And I'll end it there before in comes Mecha82 sneering to "get a life." What "jock" HASN'T said that to a nerd before?

[AquaReggie]

Okay, you've somehow managed to avoid answering whether you'd read any NuStar Wars despite half a dozen posts, in favor of complaining again about corporate greed (fair to do, to be clear - as someone who works in infectious disease research, I have plenty of criticisms of the pharma industry).

But like Winter, I don't see anything exceptional or apocalyptic about the entertainment industry now. Hell, Star Wars arguably was one the starters for the massively layered merchandising and licensing of a franchise to be put on everything from bath towels to coffee mugs, so I laugh at anyone who says corporate greed didn't have traction back then.

I have since walked back that position. I've already conceded DISCO Season 1 is so dead to me, it's the literal STD of the franchise that is worse than... all of Enterprise, TNG Season 1, and anything prior. But... Season 2 had improved. Others want me to change my views? Well, they're not helping when I've gone halfway, reevaluated Season 2, said it's better than Season 1 (which felt to me like a betrayal), and then they don't wanna elaborate on that. Confusing as hell.

Its not confusing at all. You're not obligated to like either season - but I think folks have expressed that they don't want to spoonfeed information on Trek, so the sensible courses of action would be either to check out the series, or if you're determined not to watch until you can binge all Discovery content, reserve judgment until its all out. Its the decision to do neither that's annoying.

Yeah, and where will the continuity go? It's gonna be shredded. You could just as easily insist "continuity will never be perfect" to not try to adhere to it, and indeed, those who do not say just that. I foresee so much splintering this series, it's gonna be hell. The post-Endor new canon will be different, good for them. There will be Old Republic and KOTOR adaptations, either to new canon or Legends, or both (as I've said, that does not work unless you're consistent, which I doubt they will be given the poor management), that shows the world prior to Endor is still the same old, same old (that's their approach, everything is a tired old rehash). Then what happens once they finally begin adapting Legends material like Winter wants? Same thing. They'll start with Thrawn (trust me, The Mandalorian will have Thrawn/Legends easter eggs, but it won't be Thrawn itself, it's not Legends, it's pandering to make money masquerading as "art"), and then pick and choose as they go. It's gonna be a mess. And I REMEMBER the damned poor language those in charge as well as people on this very forum used in regards to Legends. That "it's a mess," and that justifies the retcon/soft reboot/hard EU reboot. Maybe if you're gonna complain about a mess, sneer at it, you shouldn't be surrounded by clutter and slop in your living room? Just saying.

Dude, Star Wars: Thrawn was written by Zahn himself, and is generally positively reviewed. If Zahn writing a book about the character he invented is "pandering", your definition of art feels too restrictive.

The rest of the text is still confusing and contradictory to me. Everything is a rehash but you admit that the movies and NewEU post-Endor are different?

Keep this in mind when you talk to me. You're calling the Revenge of the Sith novel a mess. It's what those in charge have done and said too. The novel that fixed most of the plot holes and dialogue issues, that no longer matters by those in charge (Lucas and everyone else since), while the inferior movie is a part of the "new canon."

Err, are you mixing me up with someone else? I've never commented on the Revenge of the Sith novel - because I haven't read it. However, from previous discussion, it sounds like many of the other posters here find it to be biased pro-Sith and anti-Jedi, which fits your stated interpretation of the franchise.

[hammerofglass]

... They'll start with Thrawn (trust me, The Mandalorian will have Thrawn/Legends easter eggs, but it won't be Thrawn itself, it's not Legends, it's pandering to make money masquerading as "art"), and then pick and choose as they go. It's gonna be a mess.

They brought Thrawn back years ago. For two television seasons and three novels. All of which were good (by the "I liked them" metric). It's young inexperienced Thrawn, but he's unquestionably everybody's favorite Evil Sherlock Holmes.