Is Rey a Mary Sue?

[Simplicius]

Yes ... and no.

A Mary Sue is not just a "super powerful character with no flaws", it's a device within fan-fiction. A new character comes onto the scene and the plot begins to revolve around them. The biggest tell that someone doesn't know what a Mary Sue is, is if they tell you that a Mary Sue "can't die" - since the original Mary Sue (a parodist Star Trek character) does die.

Rey using techniques she's never learned is a plot hole, not a Sue-ism. Here are the actual reasons that she is a Sue; canon characters (Han and Leia) are drawn to her for inexplicable reasons, she shows up canon characters (most notably Luke, your mileage may vary for Han) and, according to the writers (this is only hinted at in TLJ) she is a literal avatar of the Force.

However, she is a cipher first and foremost. She is only vaguely characterised because she exists for the convenience of the writers, to be slotted into nostalgic set pieces in the Luke role whenever necessary.

Canonical over-powered entities like Mary Poppins, Gandalf and Superman are not Mary Sues.

[AlucardNoir]

Look, I really dislike the "a Mary Sue is a woman that is hypercompetent at everything" agenda some people spout, because it has very unfortunate implications, that a woman being good at something is bad, whereas a man in that same place is not. I don't think this is that, but I also would consider she is not a Mary Sue so much as Sue-ish. I mean, look at the original Mary Sue. She had Spock and the others worshiping her. She then died with them all crying over her body. The "doing all their jobs" was just one aspect of the self-insert character. No, I don't buy it's a self-insert because despite being liberal, Disney and Lucasfilm are very trapped in their options, and I think it's a byproduct of how most of Hollywood leans left. You can't escape it. It's greed, not politics, that is killing the movie industry. If we consider the core components of the Mary Sue to be 1) Hypercompetence to an unreasonable degree 2) Worship from everyone around her 3) Being a self-insert, then she only follows one of these traits. The first one. And I maintain that is poor execution. It also could be way worse. Let's admit to that. She is still in the vein of a hero. Janeway? Well, imagine if she was like Janeway. Claiming they don't want their female lead to show weakness is pure theory despite Hollywood leaning left. Again, as I'd alluded to before, they felt the same for Janeway, and look how that worked out (where she was presented as schizophrenic rather than a hero), but do you have any proof they're deliberately clamping down on her weaknesses? Hard evidence? The second? I can't speak to the quality of the film, of course, but I'm sure others could debate it. But some "slight" worship is not that bad, and in the eye of the beholder. I mean, they treated her as the new Luke, and even hyped up the past, so that's kind of what I mean by how it wasn't planned. Just chaos from no clear creative force. The third is pure fantasy. If you wanna claim they're pandering to Feminists or strong women, that's one thing. But you need to get into specifics on how this is a self-insert to, who? Abrams or Kennedy? Past the more shallow stuff to claim she is a Sue. In the end, I'g peg Rey at 20% Sue-ish. She gets 3 Sues out of 10.

You entered this thread by using history as an excuse to redefine the term Mary Sue as used by the original author and are now arguing against your own strawman.

[hammerofglass]

You know who is a Mary Sue? Kylo Ren. Tied into every major character, lots of new unique powers, has a supposedly unique place in the magic system because he's "evenly balanced" between the dark and light sides, so super-duper powerful that he can kill the BBEG as soon as he decides to with a simple gambit, so pretty even his nemesis falls in love with him, and just oh so tortured in a very performative way even though he always gets everything he wants as soon as he wants it.

He's also a petulant manchild, but given the way J.J. wrote Kirk I honestly can't tell if that was supposed to be seen as a negative trait or not.

[TGLS]

You know who is a Mary Sue? Kylo Ren. Tied into every major character, lots of new unique powers, has a supposedly unique place in the magic system because he's "evenly balanced" between the dark and light sides, so super-duper powerful that he can kill the BBEG as soon as he decides to with a simple gambit, so pretty even his nemesis falls in love with him, and just oh so tortured in a very performative way even though he always gets everything he wants as soon as he wants it.

He's also a petulant manchild, but given the way J.J. wrote Kirk I honestly can't tell if that was supposed to be seen as a negative trait or not.

Are you implying that there is no vast agenda behind Rey, only bad writing? I'm shocked.

[Mecha82]

Term Mary Sue gets thrown around too loosely on internet by certain group of people which shows that they don't understand what it actually means. To them it's just another strawman to use in they argument how some how political agenda (one that they are against) has tainted movies.

So no, Rey isn't Mary Sue and claims that she is don't hold when considered with logic.

[clearspira]

Yes ... and no.

A Mary Sue is not just a "super powerful character with no flaws", it's a device within fan-fiction. A new character comes onto the scene and the plot begins to revolve around them. The biggest tell that someone doesn't know what a Mary Sue is, is if they tell you that a Mary Sue "can't die" - since the original Mary Sue (a parodist Star Trek character) does die.

Rey using techniques she's never learned is a plot hole, not a Sue-ism. Here are the actual reasons that she is a Sue; canon characters (Han and Leia) are drawn to her for inexplicable reasons, she shows up canon characters (most notably Luke, your mileage may vary for Han) and, according to the writers (this is only hinted at in TLJ) she is a literal avatar of the Force.

However, she is a cipher first and foremost. She is only vaguely characterised because she exists for the convenience of the writers, to be slotted into nostalgic set pieces in the Luke role whenever necessary.

Canonical over-powered entities like Mary Poppins, Gandalf and Superman are not Mary Sues.

You're not wrong if I meant the original definition... but words evolve.

When I use the word ''decimate'' I don't mean ''the act of killing one in every ten men due to insubordination.''
When I say ''gay'' I don't mean ''happy''.
When I say ''Mary Sue'' I don't mean ''the exact perimeters of a woman from an old Star Trek fanfic''.

A grossly overpowered character is now a Mary Sue trait. Not a enough on its own, but it is a trait. As you say, Superman is not a Sue just because he is overpowered, he becomes a Sue when that trait is added to the rest.

But what does ''grossly'' mean in this context? A good question. Superman has a reason to be overpowered - he is a Krptonian. Gandalf is a white wizard and for all intents and purposes an angel. Goku is a Saiyan. Hercules is a demi-god. Naruto is the son of the 4th Hokage and heir to the Nine Tailed Fox. Dr Who is a millennia old Time Lord. And even Anakin, the Chosen One of the Force fathered by Palpatine a Sith Master, has an excuse.

But Rey? We have nothing. She starts out as a junk trader on a desert planet. Her parents are established to be nobodies. She has no master that we know of. She has no access to a formal education that we know of. And despite all of this she becomes the most powerful woman in the galaxy within a week. And its that ''week'' part that truly makes her grossly overpowered and the thing that most have a problem with.
And that is why I say that they will retcon a good chunk of this come Star Wars 9.

[clearspira]

Term Mary Sue gets thrown around too loosely on internet by certain group of people which shows that they don't understand what it actually means. To them it's just another strawman to use in they argument how some how political agenda (one that they are against) has tainted movies.

So no, Rey isn't Mary Sue and claims that she is don't hold when considered with logic.

I direct my last comment to you too.

Words evolve.

[clearspira]

You know who is a Mary Sue? Kylo Ren. Tied into every major character, lots of new unique powers, has a supposedly unique place in the magic system because he's "evenly balanced" between the dark and light sides, so super-duper powerful that he can kill the BBEG as soon as he decides to with a simple gambit, so pretty even his nemesis falls in love with him, and just oh so tortured in a very performative way even though he always gets everything he wants as soon as he wants it.

He's also a petulant manchild, but given the way J.J. wrote Kirk I honestly can't tell if that was supposed to be seen as a negative trait or not.

Kylo Ren - grandson of Anakin the Chosen One, grandson of Palpatine, nephew of Luke Skywalker, son of Leia Organa, son of Han Solo, trained by Snoke. The man has a reason to be powerful and connected.

Are we really saying that is comparable to ''daughter of nobody, trained by nobody, never heard of the Force until a week ago'' Rey achieving the same power level?

And who said he's evenly balanced between dark and light because that by no means comes across on screen.

[Mecha82]

So basically based on your logic only female character can be Mary Sue and no male character ever is one. What that tells about you and way you see fictional characters based on they gender and how much you put emphasis on that aspect.

[clearspira]

So basically based on your logic only female character can be Mary Sue and no male character ever is one. What that tells about you and way you see fictional characters based on they gender and how much you put emphasis on that aspect.

When did I say that only women can be Mary Sue's? What you've done there my friend is projection. That is what you want me to be saying therefore I said it.

Ah. Is it because I only gave a list of men in my previous comment as to why other overpowered characters have an excuse to be overpowered? Is that your great evidence as to my sexism?

OK then.

Buffy has an excuse to be overpowered because she is a trained Slayer. Sarah Connor went from waitress to badass because she trained between T1 and T2 to protect her child. Leia is the daughter of Anakin, granddaughter of Palpatine, brother to Luke. Supergirl is a Kryptonian. Janeway is a trained Starfleet officer. Ripley went from space trucker to defender of Newt to saviour of Earth through a logical progression that we see. Scully is a trained FBI agent. Hermione Granger is a trained witch of seven years. Korra is an Avatar.

Rey still has no excuse. She is still a nobody who lived in a desert doing Neelix's job with no knowledge of the Force a week ago. Her owning a vagina still grants her no defence to my criticisms.