Which is worse: Diveristy debater crowd for movie/TV-going culture?

[Yukaphile]

Tokenism is NEVER a good thing. I've said that over and over. I would HATE having a female Vice-President sworn in next year, especially to somebody like Biden, who you just know is going to croak before those eight years are up. He wants a black woman for a VP. Doesn't that just strike you as awful? It's not only tokenism, it's a white man helping a black girl into a position of authority. That's just pure creepy. We should be PAST this as a society and we are NOT.

Do you really think shoving aside Hulk for an Asian Hulk was a good move? Really? Because they could have kept both. Instead, screw white people, right? That's what you get from the leftist hard-liners in a hyperpolarized world.

[Yukaphile]

Btw, I am the cis-het white male. While I'm willing to experiment, my bar is much higher for men than women (as in, I have almost unrealistic standards, so no, not gonna happen). And I'm as white as wonderbread in the snow. You wonder why that is? Could it be that the majority of people in the US are cist-het white males?

[Rasp]

I think the question of 'Shouldn't we be past this?' can be answered yes but, we are not. Not even close, it takes generations to make the sweeping cultural changes I think we'd all really like to see. Finding a female lead outside traditionally female targeted genres is still pretty rare and women make up roughly half the population of the world. Fantasy and scifi novels are a great example and those don't even have to consider casting. Believe me I've looked!

I mean you'd think novels of all forms of media would be the fastest to keep up with changing culture, I'm a novelist myself and I find the rather uninspired protagonist choices of many of my peers to rather perplexing. I mean you don't have to worry about special effects or anything, yet even some of my favorite novels have straight white male protagonists despite my best efforts to avoid them.

[clearspira]

I think the question of 'Shouldn't we be past this?' can be answered yes but, we are not. Not even close, it takes generations to make the sweeping cultural changes I think we'd all really like to see. Finding a female lead outside traditionally female targeted genres is still pretty rare and women make up roughly half the population of the world. Fantasy and scifi novels are a great example and those don't even have to consider casting. Believe me I've looked!

I mean you'd think novels of all forms of media would be the fastest to keep up with changing culture, I'm a novelist myself and I find the rather uninspired protagonist choices of many of my peers to rather perplexing. I mean you don't have to worry about special effects or anything, yet even some of my favorite novels have straight white male protagonists despite my best efforts to avoid them.

I was agreeing with you until that point. You deliberately avoid novels just because the lead is a straight white man? I cannot imagine you sitting there and being happy about me saying ''I avoid books that have a black gay female lead'' but there you go. I posit that biases like these are just as effective at hindering cultural change as any other factor.

[MissKittyFantastico]

He wants a black woman for a VP. Doesn't that just strike you as awful?

No, I can't say the idea strikes any particular dread into me. Maybe - if he gets the nomination, and he does select a black woman VP candidate, and they win, and he croaks and she becomes Prez - that causes some hiccups in the march towards actual equality that have to be dealt with. If she is, as well as being black and female, well qualified for the job, my feeling is that those hiccups can be handled.

Making the VP position white-men-only - until your ideal of a self-propelled female President has been achieved - that seems like it'd be sending a bad message. I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to be the one holding the 'whites only' sign at the VP announcement press conference and explaining my reasoning to everyone.

And I'm as white as wonderbread in the snow. You wonder why that is? Could it be that the majority of people in the US are cist-het white males?

I feel like you're maybe forgetting women there - a rough google tells me that straight white cis men are something like 28% of the US population. And I say that not to take the piss for you making a mistake - who doesn't make mistakes? - as to wonder if maybe the fact that men are the default in our media was what made it so easy to say it without thinking twice?

[clearspira]

He wants a black woman for a VP. Doesn't that just strike you as awful?

No, I can't say the idea strikes any particular dread into me. Maybe - if he gets the nomination, and he does select a black woman VP candidate, and they win, and he croaks and she becomes Prez - that causes some hiccups in the march towards actual equality that have to be dealt with. If she is, as well as being black and female, well qualified for the job, my feeling is that those hiccups can be handled.

Making the VP position white-men-only - until your ideal of a self-propelled female President has been achieved - that seems like it'd be sending a bad message. I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to be the one holding the 'whites only' sign at the VP announcement press conference and explaining my reasoning to everyone.

And I'm as white as wonderbread in the snow. You wonder why that is? Could it be that the majority of people in the US are cist-het white males?

I feel like you're maybe forgetting women there - a rough google tells me that straight white cis men are something like 28% of the US population. And I say that not to take the piss for you making a mistake - who doesn't make mistakes? - as to wonder if maybe the fact that men are the default in our media was what made it so easy to say it without thinking twice?

White men AND women are the default. Newsflash: there is no longer anything special about being a woman on screen. You are in everything.

[Yukaphile]

"Hiccups along the way" are just another word for "women must delay their shot at equality in a very historical moment to stand aside in dealing with other issues." When ARE we gonna get down to equality issues? Trump is hardly the tyrant the left treats him as. He is kept in check, and assuming he makes it to 2024, they will not let him seize power, or amend the Constitution. They don't have the power needed. His term is up, he has to go, no matter what he says. Even if the Secret Service has to escort him out. The left seems mostly more horrified about his language, which fair enough, but we ALL know he was never fit for office, having never held the position in his life. The time to stop it was 2016. But the left was too busy infighting as bad as the GOP. I think tokenism is never empowering, and maybe it's a bit selfish given my skin tone and that I come from lily-white Minnesota, but it is my dream to see a woman storm through the primaries and win the White House on her own. We will NEVER have equality for women, at least in terms of our power structure and political establishment, until that day comes. And Lord knows I'm not blind to racial issues. I hear people here griping that the Somalians should have "stayed home." Yet I hardly doubt they're sadistic freaks. Just ignorant and set in their ways. Like Archie on All in the Family, who despite outright twisted views, was overall a decent guy. Mostly. With your logic, the gay couple on Star Trek was just fine. Even though, Chuck himself calls this "gay-dropping." It's not true equality if they beat you over the head that it is equality. That's more tokenism masquerading as equality. And after decades of it, I'm SICK of tokenism! I also think focusing a bit TOO hard on women's rights, ethnic peoples, and workers is a mistake. Not that they don't deserve huge importance. Just that you can go too far into wanting support for them. To the point you shove aside other people. Again, like Totally Awesome Hulk, the new super progressive Asian Hulk, shoving aside the older, white man Hulk. Is that right? We all know comics never die. Joker will never come to vindication for his crimes. So shoving aside Hulk that way feels wrong. Hell, on this instance, I'm sure Chuck himself would agree.

I hardly forget women, lol. But I have three female friends, at least in my close circle, and I can tell you one thing, that most people are far more centrist here than you think they are. Only reason that seems to be changing is hyperpolarization and tribalism is forcing people to take sides. And in that instance, yes, I will side with the left. Doesn't mean I'll like it or won't fight it every step of the way, however. And yes, sadly, clearspira is right. America may be mostly Latino by 2050, and I'm down with that. For realsies. But until then, white people are a majority. Is it wise to shove aside a majority for a minority? That ties into what I'd said above. You can still give greater priority to vulnerable and marginalized groups. Does not mean you have to forsake white people altogether. "Generic white man" being the accepted default, look, I can admit to bias here, since when I think "human," even I think that way, which is something I always fight back against. But what is the point when the left engages in their own hypocrisy just as bad against, say, women, the very people who are not "generic white men?" Again, can you honestly say shoving aside Hulk for an Asian Hulk is a good move? Just tell both stories. But no, then the Asian Hulk "doesn't get any spotlight." Again, is that right? I personally think as an old-school romantic, for het couples, the woman deserves a lot of affection and attention, since it will, theoretically, with a few outliers, lead to happier children and a happier family. And I'm certainly color-blind when it comes to eyeing the ladies. Black girls, Asian girls, white girls, Latina girls, whatever, I love 'em all. So you can't say I forget about women, lol. I'd love more women in genuine positions of authority. Changing the Caucasian Hulk to an Asian Hulk solves no real political problems past pissing off the older fans. Throwing out the older Star Wars EU proves that.

Gonna drop a Seinfeld quote here.

"And this offends you as a centrist liberal?"
"No, this offends me as a fandom nerd!"

See what I mean?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Wait so is this thread about comparing shows and movies in terms of the diversity debate?

[Yukaphile]

Hell, "sweeping cultural changes take time" is yet another reason to refuse a female Vice-President. The VP job is seen as a secondary position, nothing more. Thus, isn't it more logical to choose a minority male instead of a woman? Don't cheat women out of the White House, please. Let them get there on their own. Especially since the first black President got there on his own. But then, sadly, most people think racism is worse than sexism and shrug off sexism with "that's just how gendered relationships are."

[Admiral X]

You know, if the first female President ends up being someone like Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachman, I am so going to laugh my ass off the way I did when Trump got elected.