DS9: "The Dogs of War"

[Madner Kami]

[...]

Moreover, we get no great epiphany after she links with Odo, and that's a real problem. Because, in order for the resolution of this arc to work, we have to buy that the knowledge Odo transmits is enough to fundamentally change her and change the link. Chuck mentioned Buffy - Buffy does this better: vampires that are ensouled (Spike and Angel) end up with *crushing* guilt. We never see that from Sanders. She remains arrogant and haughty - she won't even give Kira the time of day. And if there is no great change, then letting Odo return to the Link is just catastrophically stupid on the Federation's part.

I suppose it probably won't be popular - but I think the finale actually bungles all of these key story beats. If we had seen Sanders collapse into despair, or into guilt, then Odo's ability to change the Link would make sense. The audience would at least get the satisfaction of watching such a tremendous villain truly humbled. Instead, so far as we know, she survives the series and Sanders and the Link never truly pay for the tremendous magnitude of their crimes.

Honestly, what I had always wished was that Garak had taken the moment to parrot back at Sanders the line she gave him when they first met, only this time about the Founders: "They're dead. You're dead. The Link is dead. Your people were doomed the moment they attacked us." Have the savage truth and weight of that observation finally crush her.

Yeah, that's something that always felt jarring about the end of the Dominion War. If past experiences are anything to go by, then Odo is not going to the Link and convince them of the Solids being nice people, it is Odo going to the Link and emerging as a brain-washed puppet. Remember, Odo was part of the Link once already and that didn't lead to the Link getting any nicer. Also, Odo's repeated mergers with Sanders didn't improve anything either, quite the contrary, it resulted in him being further and further detached from all the things and all the Solids he loved and he only just barely came around in the literal last second. Imagine what the collective influence of the Link would have on him, if they tried to get him around to their side. Yeah, Odo would lost in the vast sea of unified thought, that is the Link.

Also, Sanders absolutely did not give off the impression, that she felt she had lost. On the contrary, the way she acts during the signing of the Treaty of Bajor is clearly showing her distain for being forced into signing the Treaty. I'd rather argue, that her compliance is a result of her finally having a way out. Before she got healed by Odo, she literally had nothing to loose and was going to die whether the Dominion won or lost the war. Only after she was healed, after she saw a chance of survival, did she order the Genocide to stop. Yeah. She's going to take the first chance she gets, to escape captivitiy (after all she can shapeshift with ease now again), get back to the Link and the collective will will break Odo, making him an agent for the Dominion, returning to the Alpha Quadrant and starting the long infiltration for the Second Dominion War.

[CMWaters]

To those mentioning Rom as Nagus being a problem, I can see it, but there was also one bit I did like that I heard about from one of the "Season 8" DS9 novels.

When Bajor is about to become part of the Federation, Quark is concerned because as that part, money wouldn't be around anymore, and that would affect his business. Rom steps in...by making Quark's bar a Ferengi Embassy, and thus under Ferengi rules, not Federation rules. Meaning Quark can do whatever the hell he pleases as far as money and the like are concerned.

Just wanted to mention that.

[FaxModem1]

I was going to wait until the end to make this point, but this has always struck me as a real problem in DS9's finale: we never really see Sanders react to losing. She remains haughty and arrogant to the end, which honestly makes very little sense. Uh- spoilers incoming, I guess? I don't know how to spoiler-code on these forums...so, uh, fair warning?

It's worth contemplating the awesome totality with which Sanders has lost. Keep in mind - Sanders doesn't care about the Dominion, she cares about the Great Link and the other founders. The entire purpose of the war was to remove a potential threat to the Link, no matter how many Jem'Hadar had to die to do it. The cure and Odo's delivery of it later is a complete deux ex machina. Sanders has no way of knowing that there is a cure, or that Odo has the cure, or that she might reasonably hope to get the cure. That's important to keep in mind.

So, in the moments before Odo eventually beams down, Sanders has lost *everything* she valued. In the previous episodes, her arrogance was shown to be based on the fact that she didn't very much care about anything at stake. It didn't matter how many Cardassians or Vorta died doing something, because their lives had literally no meaning for her. But at the end of the war, Sanders has lost it all. She's going to die, the Great Link is going to collapse, and take with it every Founder she knows in existence. The remaining changelings will become like Odo - isolated and alone. Sanders clearly views this as a pitiable and terrible state. The dominion will probably collapse.

She's also facing immediate defeat. Even her plan to make victory as bitter as defeat has already failed when the Cardassians turn on her. *Everything* has gone wrong.

I don't know if it's a failure from the writers, the directors or the actor herself, but we never see a moment where this sinks in - we never see that moment of fatalistic clarity and the shocking realization that she has gambled everything and lost with crushing totality. Instead she is defiant to the last. She fails, but never falls. And I think that's part of why the finale feels at times like it kind of falls flat.

Moreover, we get no great epiphany after she links with Odo, and that's a real problem. Because, in order for the resolution of this arc to work, we have to buy that the knowledge Odo transmits is enough to fundamentally change her and change the link. Chuck mentioned Buffy - Buffy does this better: vampires that are ensouled (Spike and Angel) end up with *crushing* guilt. We never see that from Sanders. She remains arrogant and haughty - she won't even give Kira the time of day. And if there is no great change, then letting Odo return to the Link is just catastrophically stupid on the Federation's part.

I suppose it probably won't be popular - but I think the finale actually bungles all of these key story beats. If we had seen Sanders collapse into despair, or into guilt, then Odo's ability to change the Link would make sense. The audience would at least get the satisfaction of watching such a tremendous villain truly humbled. Instead, so far as we know, she survives the series and Sanders and the Link never truly pay for the tremendous magnitude of their crimes.

Honestly, what I had always wished was that Garak had taken the moment to parrot back at Sanders the line she gave him when they first met, only this time about the Founders: "They're dead. You're dead. The Link is dead. Your people were doomed the moment they attacked us." Have the savage truth and weight of that observation finally crush her.

I don't think you remember the episode correctly.

(She stumbles against a console.)
WEYOUN: Founder, what's wrong?
FOUNDER: I'm dying, that's what's wrong.
WEYOUN: Perhaps you should rest for a while. Revert to your natural state.
FOUNDER: I haven't been able to change form in weeks. It's ironic, isn't it, that I should die as a Solid.
WEYOUN: You're not going to die. You're a god.
FOUNDER: My loyal Weyoun. The only solid I have ever trusted.
WEYOUN: I live only to serve you.
FOUNDER: And you have served me well. I don't mind dying. It's knowing that my entire race is dying of the same illness and there is nothing I can do about it.
WEYOUN: I would give my life to save yours.
FOUNDER: If only it were that simple.

Salome Jen's delivery of that line is where we see the real Sandy. There's desperation and resignation in her voice, as well as a bit of maternal affection for Weyoun. She's at the end of her rope, and knows it. Sure, she puts on a brave face when Garak and Kira storm in, but it's a front.

It was probably her way of dying with dignity.

[Independent George]

The Ferengi plot is stupid, but completely in line with the whole Trek mentality where grieving for a lost parent being something humanity has evolved beyond; of course an entire species can completely overturn its culture overnight if they really wanted to! It bothers me more than it should because DS9 was all about escaping the Roddenberry box, and here they introduce something as nonsensical as anything Gene ever came up with.

A better Ferengi storyline - and one much more consistent with DS9's ethos - would have been if, due to the war, Ferengi merchants suddenly became essential for procuring and moving supplies within the Federation and aligned powers, and all the negative traits we'd associated with them became invaluable. It would have been completely in line with Quark's retort that, for all their sins, the Ferengi never engaged in genocide or enslaved people. The Ferengi as a species can only operate in the grey areas of a relatively peaceful and 'civilized' galaxy. They would assist the Federation not out of altruisim, but self-interest: they could only survive under the Dominion as subjects, and not the independent actors they are within the alpha quadrant.

It would have been entirely within Trek's idiom to give the Ferengi their moment in the sun and give their hat a fair shake for once. They are not 'nice' or 'enlightened', but can still be heroes even if they're not soldiers. But no. Instead, their culture is wrong, and must be destroyed.

The Federation is always right. The Ferengi will be assimilated; resistance is futile.

[Naldiin]

I don't think you remember the episode correctly.
..
Salome Jen's delivery of that line is where we see the real Sandy. There's desperation and resignation in her voice, as well as a bit of maternal affection for Weyoun. She's at the end of her rope, and knows it. Sure, she puts on a brave face when Garak and Kira storm in, but it's a front.

It was probably her way of dying with dignity.

I, uh, I have the DVDs (...so much money down the drain, now that they're all on Prime...), so when I was writing that post, I rewatched those scenes. It's not hard to pick out all of the Sanders scenes. So I assure you, my memory was just fine.

And I don't buy it. For one, her 'brave face' still includes genocide and murder. And she reacts to Weyoun's death - the solid she cared (by her own admission) *most* about in the whole universe with a flat "I wish you hadn't done that." She reacts with all the sadness and tragedy of a stubbed toe - less even. I've seen people grieve more for the pets of neighbors they didn't even really like. She reacts the to Weyoun's death the way I react to accidentally dropping a cookie on the floor, "oh darn."

And again - and I feel we must stress - Weyoun is the *one* solid she thought she could trust. And she reacts the way I react when the Burger King down the street tells me the milkshake machine is broken today..."well shoot. I guess I'll have a soda?"

Moreover, there's no sign that Sanders has actually significantly rethought her choices. I think it's a huge mistake in blocking that she clearly doesn't give Kira the time of day in the scene following her Link with Odo - because it communicates just how little she *still* thinks of Solids. Instead, the appearance is that Odo has offered her a way out - a way to save the Link, as a bargain she has to take. Not as a fundamental change in her character. But that's a real problem, because the entire justification of letting Odo go to the Link to cure them is that his presence will fundamentally change their outlook.

I think it's worth remembering that the Great Link is not a collection of individuals individually responsible for things - it's essentially a single decision-making organism. "The drop because the ocean; the ocean becomes a drop." The Link has shown in the past that it makes horrible, awful decisions. They opened diplomacy with the Federation by massacring a defenseless civilian colony without warning (New Bajor in 'The Jem'Hadar') committed (or attempted) multiple genocides (the Cardassians, the people in The Quickening); they planned to exterminate Earth as a first-step in controlling the Alpha Quadrant.

Which is to say that the Link, as a whole entity is guilty of genocide and war crimes. Perhaps they will leave the Federation alone, but there's no reason to suppose that they will stop acting that way now that the war is over, at least in the Gamma Quadrant.

Which is why the burden of showing the impact of that final link is so high. We need to be shown that Odo can do more than bargain with the founders. We need to see that he can fundamentally change them. Otherwise, what the Federation did would be the equivalent of WW2 ending with the allies letting the Nazis keep most of central Europe in exchange for a promise they would confine their genocide only to neutral countries. And I know that Godwin's Law is a thing - but here I want to make the point that what the Founders do is not metaphorical war crimes, but actual war crimes. There is no false equivalence here - this is actual equivalence.

We just need a much bigger story beat and a much bigger emotional payoff to sell a solution where the Federation is leaving he Space Nazis in charge of a quarter of the galaxy and also giving them the cure for cancer in exchange for a piece of paper.

And it's not even a "we had to sign this treaty or else tons of people would die." The Federation can (I would argue *should*) cure Sanders, get the fleet at Cardassia to stand down, and then refuse to allow Odo to travel to the Link. Given what we see - given how little remorse, guilt or concern we see from Sanders, I would contend that letting the Link die was the correct and moral choice. Because, as Vedek Yassim reminded us, "Evil must be opposed."

[RobbyB1982]

The entire Ferengi ending feels like a twist just for the sake of a twist. First, out of an entire planet of Ferengi, the DS9 one is on the one picked? I know, main character and all, but...

and then it turns around to switches to Rom because... you didn't see that coming!

And that's it. That's the entire reason. Rom became Nagus because the audience would never see it coming. It's a writer's choice, rather than the story's.

Unless he's to be Ishka's puppet as suggested in this thread, (in which case it makes perfect sense) Rom never did anything to impress (and in fact, has consistently been labelled as and shown to be an idiot) or warrant even an advisory position,let along the head role. Even if Zek has a fondness for those two and their mother, it's just... a bizarre choice. He will absolutely be eaten alive. The entire planet just... isnt going to reform overnight. Or even over 100 years. Progress just... doesn't happen that fast. Consider what happened the time the Nagu was brainwashed and planned to introduce a nicer version of the rules of acquisition?

(Also, Rom is married to an alien. How does that fly in Ferengi culture? I dunno, it never came up!)

[FakeGeekGirl]

I don't think you remember the episode correctly.

(She stumbles against a console.)
WEYOUN: Founder, what's wrong?
FOUNDER: I'm dying, that's what's wrong.
WEYOUN: Perhaps you should rest for a while. Revert to your natural state.
FOUNDER: I haven't been able to change form in weeks. It's ironic, isn't it, that I should die as a Solid.
WEYOUN: You're not going to die. You're a god.
FOUNDER: My loyal Weyoun. The only solid I have ever trusted.
WEYOUN: I live only to serve you.
FOUNDER: And you have served me well. I don't mind dying. It's knowing that my entire race is dying of the same illness and there is nothing I can do about it.
WEYOUN: I would give my life to save yours.
FOUNDER: If only it were that simple.

Salome Jen's delivery of that line is where we see the real Sandy. There's desperation and resignation in her voice, as well as a bit of maternal affection for Weyoun. She's at the end of her rope, and knows it. Sure, she puts on a brave face when Garak and Kira storm in, but it's a front.

It was probably her way of dying with dignity.

Thanks for that. I really love that scene even though I hate Sanders so much. She absolutely does realize she's beat, and she knows it, and is in despair over it. But because she's an evil bitch this manifests in her trying to take as much of the Cardassians, Alpha Quadrant powers, and even her own people with her as possible.

[FaxModem1]

I, uh, I have the DVDs (...so much money down the drain, now that they're all on Prime...), so when I was writing that post, I rewatched those scenes. It's not hard to pick out all of the Sanders scenes. So I assure you, my memory was just fine.

And I don't buy it. For one, her 'brave face' still includes genocide and murder. And she reacts to Weyoun's death - the solid she cared (by her own admission) *most* about in the whole universe with a flat "I wish you hadn't done that." She reacts with all the sadness and tragedy of a stubbed toe - less even. I've seen people grieve more for the pets of neighbors they didn't even really like. She reacts the to Weyoun's death the way I react to accidentally dropping a cookie on the floor, "oh darn."

And again - and I feel we must stress - Weyoun is the *one* solid she thought she could trust. And she reacts the way I react when the Burger King down the street tells me the milkshake machine is broken today..."well shoot. I guess I'll have a soda?"

Moreover, there's no sign that Sanders has actually significantly rethought her choices. I think it's a huge mistake in blocking that she clearly doesn't give Kira the time of day in the scene following her Link with Odo - because it communicates just how little she *still* thinks of Solids. Instead, the appearance is that Odo has offered her a way out - a way to save the Link, as a bargain she has to take. Not as a fundamental change in her character. But that's a real problem, because the entire justification of letting Odo go to the Link to cure them is that his presence will fundamentally change their outlook.

I think it's worth remembering that the Great Link is not a collection of individuals individually responsible for things - it's essentially a single decision-making organism. "The drop because the ocean; the ocean becomes a drop." The Link has shown in the past that it makes horrible, awful decisions. They opened diplomacy with the Federation by massacring a defenseless civilian colony without warning (New Bajor in 'The Jem'Hadar') committed (or attempted) multiple genocides (the Cardassians, the people in The Quickening); they planned to exterminate Earth as a first-step in controlling the Alpha Quadrant.

Which is to say that the Link, as a whole entity is guilty of genocide and war crimes. Perhaps they will leave the Federation alone, but there's no reason to suppose that they will stop acting that way now that the war is over, at least in the Gamma Quadrant.

Which is why the burden of showing the impact of that final link is so high. We need to be shown that Odo can do more than bargain with the founders. We need to see that he can fundamentally change them. Otherwise, what the Federation did would be the equivalent of WW2 ending with the allies letting the Nazis keep most of central Europe in exchange for a promise they would confine their genocide only to neutral countries. And I know that Godwin's Law is a thing - but here I want to make the point that what the Founders do is not metaphorical war crimes, but actual war crimes. There is no false equivalence here - this is actual equivalence.

We just need a much bigger story beat and a much bigger emotional payoff to sell a solution where the Federation is leaving he Space Nazis in charge of a quarter of the galaxy and also giving them the cure for cancer in exchange for a piece of paper.

And it's not even a "we had to sign this treaty or else tons of people would die." The Federation can (I would argue *should*) cure Sanders, get the fleet at Cardassia to stand down, and then refuse to allow Odo to travel to the Link. Given what we see - given how little remorse, guilt or concern we see from Sanders, I would contend that letting the Link die was the correct and moral choice. Because, as Vedek Yassim reminded us, "Evil must be opposed."

I'm not saying Sandy isn't an evil bitch. I'm pointing out that we see the real her when no one else is watching (aside from Weyoun). She is breaking up, mentally, physically and emotionally. So we do see what losing does feel like for her.

You are absolutely right about her apathy regarding the Solids. And it is a big question on whether or not Odo will be able to influence them enough to make a difference.

On the plus side, the UFP is still advancing, and will probably be a bigger contender against the Dominion by the time their borders meet naturally. Heck, by the time it does happen, with all the goodies Janeway brought from the Delta Quadrant, the UFP might be centuries ahead before the Dominion is ready.

[FakeGeekGirl]

I think it goes into the fact that DS9 is at its core, an optimistic and hopeful series despite all the criticisms that it's too cynical for Trek. But I agree that I really wish there had been more concrete foundation laid for the hope that Odo actually can reform the Dominion. And also that we were getting a sequel series that might touch on how that all went, but at this point that seems tremendously unlikely.

[jadenova]

The new Defiant seems a bit convenient, though it does have precedent. I believe all of the USN carriers sunk in the early parts of WWII had new carriers named for them serving before the war's end.

That is true. I live in Charleston, SC and the USS Yorktown that we have is named after the one sunk at the beginning of the war.