DS9 - Hard Time

[Deledrius]

This makes me question the alien society.
They are obviously big on the punitive aspect of a prison, make the people suffer, but they also want to do it quickly so that the people can return to society.

So why is there not a follow up simulation not entirely about the criminals being given huge amounts of therapy, drug rehab, and job skills training?

There are definitely some unfortunate implications (which I doubt were really considered) in a penal system which traumatizes its citizenry and then releases them back into society. Perhaps Starfleet chose to forgo some customary exit-counseling (and I don't blame them for not trusting this society further), but otherwise the situation is pretty grim. Assuming something even remotely human in terms of psychology, they're just producing broken people for even the slightest infractions. If it weren't for that lucky and timely intervention by Bashir, O'Brien would be no more. Is this a common fate on their world for post-incarceration?

The sad thing is I could see such a system existing here on Earth, and have ardent defenders, despite its obvious demonstrable shortcomings.

[Rocketboy1313]

O'Brien was held for 20. He should have ended up an alcoholic with a failed marriage. He's right when he tells Bashir that the O'Brien who was his friend died in that cell. Warp technology is more plausible than O'Brien returning to normal from counseling, unless they can erase his memories that the events ever happened.

It is like everyone else is saying, you kind of have to accept that as an episodic show you have to just go, "and then things returned to normal".
They could have come up with an explanation, be it telepathy, surgery, my suggestion of running him thru a simulation of therapy and reintegration, or just saying, "Turns out this process is more intense for human brains but fades quickly over time".

You just have to head-canon an explanation.

[remagynona]

The Fading Dream idea is the only thing that makes sense to me here. Just a few years and no solitary confinement in a modern American prison full of desperate and violent people can and does turn good men into monsters. Was re-watching 25th Hour recently and was struck by Barry Pepper's line about his and Philip Seymour Hoffman's friendship with Edward Norton being over that night. Seven years in Otisville will make him a completely different person. He blurts out something to the effect of "What do you think you're going to do when he gets out? Grab a beer and reminisce about the old days? It's over after tonight."

For someone who thought he was thrown in a cell, starved and left to rot for 20 years he looked surprisingly composed when he woke up and found out what really happened. Like waking from a bad nightmare, it can stick with you for a long time but the worst of it fades in the first seconds of consciousness. Which just makes this ridiculous penal system make even less sense than it already does.

[Darth Wedgius]

I liked the episode. O'Brien is, effectively, a murderer -- but nobody died, so we can pretend it didn't happen if we want to. He has to live with knowing what he did when desperate enough.

Not knowing more detail about the aliens' legal system (or the aliens) makes it difficult to judge how effective it is for them. They presumably know that it's just a simulation -- it would be hard to keep a missing decade or two a secret, and a mindwipe would just mean nothing happened.

At least he has his old life to fall back into, something people who actually live through a long-term imprisonment don't have.

[excalibur]

I didn't like how there's no justice for Miles. I get the whole behind the scenes he needs to suffer, but there's no fight back against the aliens to admit they were wrong, no lasting repercussions? This made me feel...unsatisfied and it's almost like cruel and unusual punishment since they designed the simulation of you stuck in a room with some rando and most likely predicted the prisoner would kill his cellmate and spend the rest of his time in solitary. No exercise or seeing the sun or even pretend to speak to an attorney. I assume Miles didn't find it strange in the simulation that the Federation hasn't moved planets to at least get one of their lawyers to see him? Demanded he be extradited because these aliens are basically imprisoning a Federation citizen without representation fro their side?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I didn't like how there's no justice for Miles. I get the whole behind the scenes he needs to suffer, but there's no fight back against the aliens to admit they were wrong, no lasting repercussions? This made me feel...unsatisfied and it's almost like cruel and unusual punishment since they designed the simulation of you stuck in a room with some rando and most likely predicted the prisoner would kill his cellmate and spend the rest of his time in solitary. No exercise or seeing the sun or even pretend to speak to an attorney. I assume Miles didn't find it strange in the simulation that the Federation hasn't moved planets to at least get one of their lawyers to see him? Demanded he be extradited because these aliens are basically imprisoning a Federation citizen without representation fro their side?

It's not uncommon for intersolar sovereignty to be a delicate concern for Starfleet affairs. If somebody is charged with a crime in another territory then it will do what it can to cooperate to both sides' fair interest, but otherwise there's a bit of gray area that tend to be overlooked for the benefit of the doubt, or discretion of sovereignty at least.

[CrypticMirror]

I didn't like how there's no justice for Miles. I get the whole behind the scenes he needs to suffer, but there's no fight back against the aliens to admit they were wrong, no lasting repercussions? This made me feel...unsatisfied and it's almost like cruel and unusual punishment since they designed the simulation of you stuck in a room with some rando and most likely predicted the prisoner would kill his cellmate and spend the rest of his time in solitary. No exercise or seeing the sun or even pretend to speak to an attorney. I assume Miles didn't find it strange in the simulation that the Federation hasn't moved planets to at least get one of their lawyers to see him? Demanded he be extradited because these aliens are basically imprisoning a Federation citizen without representation fro their side?

That would be all handled by the Federation Diplomatic corps, outwith the scope of DS9's remit though. And outside the remit of the story.

[clearspira]

As Chuck has noted, Starfleet diplomacy often means "let them kick our ass for a while."

[Deledrius]

That would be all handled by the Federation Diplomatic corps, outwith the scope of DS9's remit though. And outside the remit of the story.

I've thought this could be an interesting premise for a Trek show that isn't the same old style. I know the West Wing and others like it were popular for a time. There's an audience for it, I bet.

As Chuck has noted, Starfleet diplomacy often means "let them kick our ass for a while."

It's not wrong. And it works in Starfleet's case because they generally have the resources to withstand it. The privilege in being able to take the high ground in those "negotiations" is one that is usually left unexamined, unfortunately. I'd love to see someone tackle this aspect in a positive way someday.

Does anyone know of any examples in sci-fi where an author does go into depth on that?

[CrypticMirror]

That would be all handled by the Federation Diplomatic corps, outwith the scope of DS9's remit though. And outside the remit of the story.

I've thought this could be an interesting premise for a Trek show that isn't the same old style. I know the West Wing and others like it were popular for a time. There's an audience for it, I bet.

I'd watch it. Although I'm not sure I'd trust the current showrunners to make it and not be more Whitehouse Down than the West Wing right now.