Doctor Who- Face the Raven.

[Thebestoftherest]

What frustrated me about Clara was "Into the Dalek." That was the episode that made me realize that Moffat didn't really know what to DO with her.

In that, the Doctor says that Clara is his "carer" - she cares so he doesn't have to, acting as his empathy. I could get behind that - the angry Doctor idea where in this regeneration he's a lot less empathetic and he needs to relearn what it means to give a damn... except in that same episode, we see tragedy and death and someone begging to be remembered after knowing they're going to die... and what happens in the end? Clara shrugs it off and doesn't give a damn. There's your "carer" - the one who probably forgot those people's names because it was just another adventure, just another day at the office.

As stupid as "Kill the Moon" was, I LOVED the ending scene of her calling out the Doctor on his bullshit - of putting her in a horrible, emotionally-trying situation like that. It was patronizing, out of character, and WRONG and she was right to tell him that. And then they completely undo it in "In the Forest of the Night" and that made an already-bad episode even worse and further indicated that Moffat didn't know what to do with her.

I think they wanted a less goodie goodie character but the doctors lines with stuff like she my carer really push the weong buttons.

[clearspira]

As stupid as "Kill the Moon" was, I LOVED the ending scene of her calling out the Doctor on his bullshit - of putting her in a horrible, emotionally-trying situation like that. It was patronizing, out of character, and WRONG and she was right to tell him that. And then they completely undo it in "In the Forest of the Night" and that made an already-bad episode even worse and further indicated that Moffat didn't know what to do with her.

I have to completely disagree with you there - the Doctor is a self-centred asshole and always has been. Sure, he is a self-centred asshole that tries to save people, but let us not forget that in his very first episode he tried to smash a caveman's head in with a rock. And if anyone thinks that is too old an example, i'll give you another one:

The Doctor: Don't challenge me, Harriet Jones! 'Cos I'm a completely new man! I could bring down your government with a single word!
Harriet Jones: You're the most remarkable man I've ever met. But I don't think you're quite capable of that.
The Doctor: No, you're right. Not a single word; just six.
Harriet Jones: I don't think so.
The Doctor: Six words.
Harriet Jones: Stop it!
The Doctor: Six. [walks over to Alex and whispers to him] Don't you think she looks tired?

The Doctor then proceeds to put Harold Saxon into office.

[Thebestoftherest]

I also think the Hybrid subplot is the absolute worst way to do a season long arc. Mentioning it like it important but at no point bother with a satisfying ending.

[Darth Wedgius]

I liked Clara, FWiW. It might be worse if you're a fan of classic Who and more used to the companions who don't overshadow the Doctor as often. I liked River Song, too, and she seems to rub a lot of people wrong for the same reason. But I admit Clara may have overstayed. The Impossible Girl's impossibility was explained, and she stayed around for a good while after that.

For the episode itself, I was hoping they'd mention the possibility of, say, stopping her heart, freezing her (handling ice crystals somehow), whatever. Even if that doesn't make her dead enough not to be killed, it should be less painful if there's no brain function. I know that the Doctor can't clever his way out of this one because if he did he couldn't go off the rails trying to clever his way out a couple episodes later, but it would have been nice to have them address it. That might just be me, though.

[Senko]

I liked Clara, FWiW. It might be worse if you're a fan of classic Who and more used to the companions who don't overshadow the Doctor as often. I liked River Song, too, and she seems to rub a lot of people wrong for the same reason. But I admit Clara may have overstayed. The Impossible Girl's impossibility was explained, and she stayed around for a good while after that.

For the episode itself, I was hoping they'd mention the possibility of, say, stopping her heart, freezing her (handling ice crystals somehow), whatever. Even if that doesn't make her dead enough not to be killed, it should be less painful if there's no brain function. I know that the Doctor can't clever his way out of this one because if he did he couldn't go off the rails trying to clever his way out a couple episodes later, but it would have been nice to have them address it. That might just be me, though.

Its not so much about overshadowing as it is replacing for me. There have been other characters who to one extent or another overshadowed the doctor of the time but with Clara she's not overshadowing him she's replacing him and making it the "Clara Oswald" show. She does all the same things he does and turns him into the companion. She's not a bigger character but the focus is on her rather than him, as I said she's the one who decides when they'll travel and when she doesn't want to do so he just has to hang around Coledale. Compare this to Amy and Rory where its shown in multiple ways that when they don't want to travel with him his response is "ok" and he goes off and has his own adventures. Clara he just sort of hangs around waiting for her to bother with him.

Then you add in the other issues with her character on top of this and you get things like her giving him "flash cards" of appropriate behaviour. Something which just had me shaking my head over the fact that she of all people thinks she can give him advice one how to behave properly when she's frankly horrible at interacting with other people and this is someone who is horrible at dealing with others saying this. Which is also part of the problem in the past its generally been likeable doctor/unlikeable companion, likeable doctor/likeable companion, unlikeable doctor/likeable companion but here its unlikeable doctor (till he deals with his issues) and unlikeable companion. Which just makes it unpleasant to watch and as a commenter above said she's not suitable to be his conscience because she doesn't care about others. Even with Danny its not about him its about how his death hurts her and how does she deal with it? She doesn't ASK, she drugs the doctor, steals what she thinks are all the key's and threatens him if he doesn't do what she wants.

[clearspira]

I liked Clara, FWiW. It might be worse if you're a fan of classic Who and more used to the companions who don't overshadow the Doctor as often. I liked River Song, too, and she seems to rub a lot of people wrong for the same reason. But I admit Clara may have overstayed. The Impossible Girl's impossibility was explained, and she stayed around for a good while after that.

For the episode itself, I was hoping they'd mention the possibility of, say, stopping her heart, freezing her (handling ice crystals somehow), whatever. Even if that doesn't make her dead enough not to be killed, it should be less painful if there's no brain function. I know that the Doctor can't clever his way out of this one because if he did he couldn't go off the rails trying to clever his way out a couple episodes later, but it would have been nice to have them address it. That might just be me, though.

Its not so much about overshadowing as it is replacing for me. There have been other characters who to one extent or another overshadowed the doctor of the time but with Clara she's not overshadowing him she's replacing him and making it the "Clara Oswald" show. She does all the same things he does and turns him into the companion. She's not a bigger character but the focus is on her rather than him, as I said she's the one who decides when they'll travel and when she doesn't want to do so he just has to hang around Coledale. Compare this to Amy and Rory where its shown in multiple ways that when they don't want to travel with him his response is "ok" and he goes off and has his own adventures. Clara he just sort of hangs around waiting for her to bother with him.

Then you add in the other issues with her character on top of this and you get things like her giving him "flash cards" of appropriate behaviour. Something which just had me shaking my head over the fact that she of all people thinks she can give him advice one how to behave properly when she's frankly horrible at interacting with other people and this is someone who is horrible at dealing with others saying this. Which is also part of the problem in the past its generally been likeable doctor/unlikeable companion, likeable doctor/likeable companion, unlikeable doctor/likeable companion but here its unlikeable doctor (till he deals with his issues) and unlikeable companion. Which just makes it unpleasant to watch and as a commenter above said she's not suitable to be his conscience because she doesn't care about others. Even with Danny its not about him its about how his death hurts her and how does she deal with it? She doesn't ASK, she drugs the doctor, steals what she thinks are all the key's and threatens him if he doesn't do what she wants.

Imo, Twelve only misses out on the ''worst male Doctor award'' because of Six. In my opinion, the writers tried to make a character that was half Jon Pertwee and half Matt Smith. The problem is that these two personality types are completely incompatible. Pertwee A) Had a level of charm that made being a grumpy git endearing and B) Would not be caught dead strumming a ''space guitar'' or whatever that thing was.

[Wargriffin]

Clara was a bad case of she needed to go once 11 was gone ' she played the best off Smith' and well 12 having issues with the writers wanting one type of Doctor and Capaldi wanting to play a different doctor

Clara should have stayed to ease viewers into 12 but then leave so 12 can have his own identity

that said I love the next episode

[MerelyAFan]

As far as Clara I think it was a dual problem of Moffat's sheer burnout (running DW and Sherlock and involved in stuff like the Tintin movie is going to wear on him after a while) and that it felt like over time he was gradually interest in writing for the Doctor vs. writing for her. That would be fine, except that Moffat's strengths were always more in writing the title character than the companions (very much the opposite of RTD in that regard). Clara would be the Impossible Girl, a critical figure, and one that the Doctor nearly broke the universe the save, yet never felt quite as realized as person in comparison to a Rose, Martha, or Donna.

The upcoming Heaven Sent/Hell Bent dualogy is a great illustration of this, with the former being an incredible bottle show that delivers as a character driven exploration of the Doctor's grief and angry frustration bordering on madness... and the second is a huge mess which wastes tons of potential story opportunities just to get to the writing solution to prevent/delay Clara's death. Its a two parter that shows Moffat at his best and at his worst.

[clearspira]

As far as Clara I think it was a dual problem of Moffat's sheer burnout (running DW and Sherlock and involved in stuff like the Tintin movie is going to wear on him after a while) and that it felt like over time he was gradually interest in writing for the Doctor vs. writing for her. That would be fine, except that Moffat's strengths were always more in writing the title character than the companions (very much the opposite of RTD in that regard). Clara would be the Impossible Girl, a critical figure, and one that the Doctor nearly broke the universe the save, yet never felt quite as realized as person in comparison to a Rose, Martha, or Donna.

The upcoming Heaven Sent/Hell Bent dualogy is a great illustration of this, with the former being an incredible bottle show that delivers as a character driven exploration of the Doctor's grief and angry frustration bordering on madness... and the second is a huge mess which wastes tons of potential story opportunities just to get to the writing solution to prevent/delay Clara's death. Its a two parter that shows Moffat at his best and at his worst.

Goes back to what I was saying before: the Doctor is a self-centred asshole. No one is worth the potential deaths of countless innocents. He did it because this one person was special to him.

[Senko]

I'd agree with that.