Areas where you'd respectfully disagree with Chuck

[Meushell]

so, crim

again, this seems to be getting off topic.

also, wile forgiveness is a good message to send to kids "forgive and forget" is ah absolutely toxic message to send to kids.

Going to have to disagree with you there.

so, criminals should never be put in jail?

also, out of curiousity, I watched a Christmas episode of another kids show and read up on the rest of the show, where the main antagonist never gets in actual trouble with any authority figures. and I mean never. that show being Blaze and the Monster Machines. sure, Crusher gets humiliated a lot but never gets disqualified or called out for cheating in an actual race with rules and stuff, from what I read.

To be fair, Crusher (and this probably not intentional) is often written and acted like he’s mentally challenged. At least, that’s how he comes across to me because he’s supposed to be an adult, but he acts more childish than anyone else, including the kids on the show. I don’t just mean his cheating and such. There’s an episode where he is missing his favorite toy, and he cries and whines about it the entire time. It was probably supposed to be funny, but to me, it just reinforced my thoughts on him.

Another point to make...Blaze cheats as far as I’m concerned. He uses special boosting speed that only he gets to have. He is even cheered for it because he’s the hero of the town.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

Ah, hyperbole...

what exactly am I being hyperbolic about?

Your argument is built around the idea that if an eight-year-old watches a show with the message "Forgive and Forget" they're going to forgive mass murderers and just let them go free, because the show forgave someone who did really over the top things. You argue that the show should give a "Punish the Guilty" moral, so they won't feel compelled to let mass murderers go free.

In reality, the show gives the moral "Forgive and Forget" because an eight-year-old still has a developing sense of morality. When some kid on the playground swipes their toy, if you're going around giving them the message "Punish the Guilty", they may very well decide to deck the kid after they get it back, instead of forgiving and forgetting.

In other words, your whole mass murderer argument is:

well, the show also has simple school bully characters, wouldn't including the big "take over the world" type villains in the same "forgive and forget" morals as the characters who's worst crime is tame compared to real life bullies, confuse the kids?

but again, some of the villains really are committing atrocities and it isn't always over the top. Starlight Glimmer's methods are things real life cults employ and Tempest Shadow and the Storm King's forces burned down Ponyville!.

and it's not like kids media can't address this kind of thing. How to Train Your Dragon 2 had a villain that existed to teach the message that some people are just pure evil and it's utterly pointless to even try and reach them. the film even spells it out in dialogue: "A man who kills without reason cannot be reasoned with!"

and it's not just about the moral perspective. it's about my own suspension of disbelief. I can't believe absolutely no one died or had their lives ruined because of the actions of these reformed villains when they were villains. where are the such characters that refuse to forgive Discord, Tempest, etc?

and there is a hypocrisy. SOMETIMES characters get punished onscreen but it doesn't satisfy me because they are so few and far between and it seems that the lesser the offense, the more likely they'll get punished but a war criminal like Tempest Shadow is let off the hook. and those few instances are played for laughs with clearly no message behind them since the episode's real message was already leaned beforehand.

and I've said that it happens in a lot of current kids shows and it was probably because of MLP's influence.

I am fine with forgiveness too but there is a limit. what happened to shows like the ones I grew up with like the original Powerpuff Girls or 101 Dalmatians: The Series? in the former, we had stuff like one of the title characters stealing something and instead of forgive and forget when she confessed, she got 50 hours community service or when another Powerpuff Girl beat up villains who weren't currently doing anything to collect their teeth for Tooth Fairy money, the other Powerpuffs let the villains beat the shit out of her as karma. in the latter, the main characters' antics get them grounded on a regular basis.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

so, crim

again, this seems to be getting off topic.

also, wile forgiveness is a good message to send to kids "forgive and forget" is ah absolutely toxic message to send to kids.

Going to have to disagree with you there.

so, criminals should never be put in jail?

also, out of curiousity, I watched a Christmas episode of another kids show and read up on the rest of the show, where the main antagonist never gets in actual trouble with any authority figures. and I mean never. that show being Blaze and the Monster Machines. sure, Crusher gets humiliated a lot but never gets disqualified or called out for cheating in an actual race with rules and stuff, from what I read.

To be fair, Crusher (and this probably not intentional) is often written and acted like he’s mentally challenged. At least, that’s how he comes across to me because he’s supposed to be an adult, but he acts more childish than anyone else, including the kids on the show. I don’t just mean his cheating and such. There’s an episode where he is missing his favorite toy, and he cries and whines about it the entire time. It was probably supposed to be funny, but to me, it just reinforced my thoughts on him.

Another point to make...Blaze cheats as far as I’m concerned. He uses special boosting speed that only he gets to have. He is even cheered for it because he’s the hero of the town.

from what little I saw of the show at least, I saw no indication that any of the monster trucks besides maybe Blaze himself are adults. and either way, your last point makes the show even worse because Blaze is the protagonist and doesn't even get the Asshole Victim treatment Crusher gets.

[Meushell]

To be fair, Crusher (and this probably not intentional) is often written and acted like he’s mentally challenged. At least, that’s how he comes across to me because he’s supposed to be an adult, but he acts more childish than anyone else, including the kids on the show. I don’t just mean his cheating and such. There’s an episode where he is missing his favorite toy, and he cries and whines about it the entire time. It was probably supposed to be funny, but to me, it just reinforced my thoughts on him.

Another point to make...Blaze cheats as far as I’m concerned. He uses special boosting speed that only he gets to have. He is even cheered for it because he’s the hero of the town.

from what little I saw of the show at least, I saw no indication that any of the monster trucks besides maybe Blaze himself are adults. and either way, your last point makes the show even worse because Blaze is the protagonist and doesn't even get the Asshole Victim treatment Crusher gets.

True, I suppose they could all just be kids running around without any supervision. Then Crusher is possibly just younger than everyone else. Either way, I don’t see him as a villain, but as someone who needs to be taught the difference between right and wrong, disciplined when needed, and treated with respect.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

To be fair, Crusher (and this probably not intentional) is often written and acted like he’s mentally challenged. At least, that’s how he comes across to me because he’s supposed to be an adult, but he acts more childish than anyone else, including the kids on the show. I don’t just mean his cheating and such. There’s an episode where he is missing his favorite toy, and he cries and whines about it the entire time. It was probably supposed to be funny, but to me, it just reinforced my thoughts on him.

Another point to make...Blaze cheats as far as I’m concerned. He uses special boosting speed that only he gets to have. He is even cheered for it because he’s the hero of the town.

from what little I saw of the show at least, I saw no indication that any of the monster trucks besides maybe Blaze himself are adults. and either way, your last point makes the show even worse because Blaze is the protagonist and doesn't even get the Asshole Victim treatment Crusher gets.

True, I suppose they could all just be kids running around without any supervision. Then Crusher is possibly just younger than everyone else. Either way, I don’t see him as a villain, but as someone who needs to be taught the difference between right and wrong, disciplined when needed, and treated with respect.

yeah but it's the "disciplined when needed" part that is the issue, same with My Little Pony and pretty much every other current kids' show. even my beloved The Lion Guard. that kind of thing stopped happening in TLG but the times it did weren't addressed.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

and I realize this is derailing the tread at this point but I don't know of another thread that would be more appropriate for this discussion. maybe someone should make one, like that nature of evil debate?

[Deledrius]

and I realize this is derailing the tread at this point but I don't know of another thread that would be more appropriate for this discussion. maybe someone should make one, like that nature of evil debate?

Probably a good idea, since that particular topic isn't so much disagreeing with Chuck as it is disagreeing with the presentation of morality in children's media.

TBH, the question you struggle with is an unsolved one even in philosophy, AFAIK.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

and I realize this is derailing the tread at this point but I don't know of another thread that would be more appropriate for this discussion. maybe someone should make one, like that nature of evil debate?

Probably a good idea, since that particular topic isn't so much disagreeing with Chuck as it is disagreeing with the presentation of morality in children's media.

TBH, the question you struggle with is an unsolved one even in philosophy, AFAIK.

but someone else will have to move the conversation to another thread, I just know how to start a new thread from scratch.

but back to something I disagreed with before, there is something else I can say about Dukat. in "Waltz" he said "I knew it I Always knew it, I should have killed them all!" isn't that proof that all his supposed redeeming qualities were lies and he never really cared about Ziyal, Neprem or anyone else and secretly wanted them dead for being Bajorans?

[TGLS]

I think it's fair to say at that point Dukat isn't in a right state of mind anymore, and assuming that the past Dukat and then-present Dukat is unfair.

[clearspira]

and I realize this is derailing the tread at this point but I don't know of another thread that would be more appropriate for this discussion. maybe someone should make one, like that nature of evil debate?

Probably a good idea, since that particular topic isn't so much disagreeing with Chuck as it is disagreeing with the presentation of morality in children's media.

TBH, the question you struggle with is an unsolved one even in philosophy, AFAIK.

but someone else will have to move the conversation to another thread, I just know how to start a new thread from scratch.

but back to something I disagreed with before, there is something else I can say about Dukat. in "Waltz" he said "I knew it I Always knew it, I should have killed them all!" isn't that proof that all his supposed redeeming qualities were lies and he never really cared about Ziyal, Neprem or anyone else and secretly wanted them dead for being Bajorans?

What an hellucinating man says in a cave after having just crashed on the way to be tried for war crimes is hardly a fair approximation of what he thought three seasons before when he was healthy, strong, respected and powerful.