DS:9 "Extreme Measures"

[MaxWylde]

And what happens when Section 31 takes an interest in, say, the elections of a member planet which has an isolationist faction that is gaining traction, or in a scientist's revolutionary work that would make it easier to detect a lot of their technologies, or a popular artist is making popular art that decries actions or policies done by the Federation? Are these people quietly taken out by Section 31?

Hard to say, exactly. Section 31 doesn't seem to me to be the kind of faction that worries too much about that kind of thing because of the inherent nature of Oligarchy, which is what the Federation is (there are no such things as Republics or Democracies, in spite of popular opinion). Naturally it would depend on the circumstances. I would imagine, however, that Section 31 would have a hand in keeping the Federation together post-Dominion War, because likely as not a secessionist movement would be considered in the wake of Starfleet's failures. What would they do? I think it would depend on the situation on a case-by-case basis. I had this idea that if a secessionist movement were to begin, if it started with a founding member world of the Federation, like Andor or Tellar, or worse, Vulcan, you will see such leaders quietly taken out by Section 31, because such a political movement would have a lot of traction if it were led by a Founding world.

Starfleet Intelligence, or their leadership above them, would say that this isn't necessary, as these are people exercising their constitutional rights, and expressing themselves within Federation law. Section 31, on the other hand, would say these people are an imminent threat and must be dealt with. Thereby depriving the Federation of discourse of ideas, revolutionary technologies, and freedom of expression. This ruins the very thing the Federation is supposed to have to make it a wonderful place.

Maybe, but at the same time we don't know or understand fully the nature of Starfleet Intelligence. If it's like a military intelligence branch, they likely only conduct operations where Starfleet has an interest in, such as finding out enemy movements and capability, and don't ordinarily go into doing things like the CIA or the KGB does, because those are more civilian in nature.

I should point out that Section 31 is so secret that few in the Federation even know of its existence. We don't know for certain who knows of it, but I suspect, obviously, that the President does, and maybe some members of the Federation Council, depending on their status within the hierarchy, and some admirals did. Nevertheless, the anonymity and secrecy of this organization allows it to be disavowed with some credibility from the Federation government. Starfleet Intelligence can't be disavowed, even if it does something that was not ordered specifically by Starfleet Command or the Federation Council; they may have operated as rogue agents, but it was still a Starfleet organization that did X and therefore someone's going to pay for it. Section 31 doesn't have such oversight, and that's by design, obviously, and thus while individuals can be thrown under the bus and be dispatched, the organization will not suffer on the whole for it.

You can say that this might go against the whole idea of the Federation, and I would agree, but then again, we have to consider that maybe the Federation isn't what they claim to be in the first place. But that self-image is paramount (no pun intended), because it's the only symbol of unity that such a nation would have in lieu of a monarchy. As such, Section 31 would be essential in order to do the things that the Federation cannot admit to do, but must do, where such ideology and idealism has no place in reality.

Except that we have seen that Mind Melds can be overthrown, as shown by Dukat in "The Maquis", and that trained operatives can get around such things. And as we saw in "Chain of Command", one doesn't even need psychics, as sufficient drugging of captives will get them to reveal all their secrets. It's more likely that such Starfleet Intelligence and Section 31 both have telepaths on their side, quietly gaining information while quietly going about their duty in areas. We saw how effective Troi was aboard a Romulan ship in "Face of the Enemy".

True, but how effective is this at all times? It comes down to individuals and their abilities, however trained or untrained they may be. Section 31 also doesn't come off to me as a large organization, powerful as they may be. That means that what they do is concentrated on specific things at specific times, so that might help in keeping their secrets as secret as possible even from powerful telepaths like malformed betazoids. Nevertheless, such people would be huge threats to Section 31's existence, especially someone with a big mouth like Tam Elbron. I agree that they likely have psychic operatives in their ranks.

One thing I don't really like Section 31 much is how perfect they seem to be. I realize that the writers did a bang-up job creating them and I give them credit for it as this sort of boogeyman, but I would've liked to have seen such an organization make serious mistakes, as all such organizations do from time to time, and I would imagine they would have more of them in a galaxy with all sorts of different intelligent species running around. Plaguing the Founders as they did was but one of a myriad of successes they had, but that would've meant they had to have near-omniscient abilities that such people, as powerful as they seem to be, really don't have. It's as though they could see into the future; they must've had Odo under surveillance somehow from the beginning of DS9 when the Federation took over, and studying him as much as possible; I have a difficult time believing somehow that they'd come up with a plague that prevented shapeshifters from changing form as they need to in order to survive in the scant amount of time it took. But, then again, this is Star Trek, and in Star Trek, they can go from theory to application in literally seconds, with little to no testing whatsoever.

[FaxModem1]

Hard to say, exactly. Section 31 doesn't seem to me to be the kind of faction that worries too much about that kind of thing because of the inherent nature of Oligarchy, which is what the Federation is (there are no such things as Republics or Democracies, in spite of popular opinion). Naturally it would depend on the circumstances. I would imagine, however, that Section 31 would have a hand in keeping the Federation together post-Dominion War, because likely as not a secessionist movement would be considered in the wake of Starfleet's failures. What would they do? I think it would depend on the situation on a case-by-case basis. I had this idea that if a secessionist movement were to begin, if it started with a founding member world of the Federation, like Andor or Tellar, or worse, Vulcan, you will see such leaders quietly taken out by Section 31, because such a political movement would have a lot of traction if it were led by a Founding world.

And you would be wrong.

BASHIR: So, why don't you tell me who you are? Who you work for?
SLOAN: I would think it's obvious. The same people you work for. The Federation. Starfleet.
BASHIR: You don't expect me to believe you're with Internal Affairs, do you?
SLOAN: No, of course not. Internal Affairs is a competent department, but limited.
BASHIR: So which department are you with?
SLOAN: Let's just say I belong to another branch of Starfleet Intelligence. Our official designation is Section thirty one.
BASHIR: Never heard of it.
SLOAN: We keep a low profile. Works out better that way for all concerned.
BASHIR: And what does Section thirty one do, apart from kidnapping Starfleet officers?
SLOAN: We search out and identify potential dangers to the Federation.
BASHIR: And once identified?
SLOAN: We deal with them.
BASHIR: How?
SLOAN: Quietly.

It all depends on what they define a 'potential danger' to the Federation as. For all we know, they focus exclusively on outside threats, but then, they kidnapped Bashir and interrogated him, didn't they?

Maybe, but at the same time we don't know or understand fully the nature of Starfleet Intelligence. If it's like a military intelligence branch, they likely only conduct operations where Starfleet has an interest in, such as finding out enemy movements and capability, and don't ordinarily go into doing things like the CIA or the KGB does, because those are more civilian in nature.

Good point, good thing we have Federation Security to handle such issues, and don't need Section 31 in their jackboots to quietly take people in the night for thought crimes against the state.

I should point out that Section 31 is so secret that few in the Federation even know of its existence. We don't know for certain who knows of it, but I suspect, obviously, that the President does, and maybe some members of the Federation Council, depending on their status within the hierarchy. Nevertheless, the anonymity and secrecy of this organization allows it to be disavowed with some credibility from the Federation government. Starfleet Intelligence can't be disavowed, even if it does something that was not ordered specifically by Starfleet Command or the Federation Council; they may have operated as rogue agents, but it was still a Starfleet organization that did X and therefore someone's going to pay for it. Section 31 doesn't have such oversight, and that's by design, obviously, and thus while individuals can be thrown under the bus and be dispatched, the organization will not suffer on the whole for it.

You can say that this might go against the whole idea of the Federation, and I would agree, but then again, we have to consider that maybe the Federation isn't what they claim to be in the first place. But that self-image is paramount (no pun intended), because it's the only symbol of unity that such a nation would have in lieu of a monarchy. As such, Section 31 would be essential in order to do the things that the Federation cannot admit to do, but must do, where such ideology and idealism has no place in reality.

Proof? Aside from your gut telling you that the Federation really isn't paradise, what proof do you have that it is?

True, but how effective is this at all times? It comes down to individuals and their abilities, however trained or untrained they may be. Section 31 also doesn't come off to me as a large organization, powerful as they may be. That means that what they do is concentrated on specific things at specific times, so that might help in keeping their secrets as secret as possible even from powerful telepaths like malformed betazoids. Nevertheless, such people would be huge threats to Section 31's existence, especially someone with a big mouth like Tam Elbron. I agree that they likely have psychic operatives in their ranks.

Again, S31 is a terrorist organization, so I wouldn't put it past them to murder random Federation citizens 'for the good of the Federation'. But it's doubtful that they weed out random strong telepaths.

One thing I don't really like Section 31 much is how perfect they seem to be. I realize that the writers did a bang-up job creating them and I give them credit for it as this sort of boogeyman, but I would've liked to have seen such an organization make serious mistakes, as all such organizations do from time to time, and I would imagine they would have more of them in a galaxy with all sorts of different intelligent species running around. Plaguing the Founders as they did was but one of a myriad of successes they had, but that would've meant they had to have near-omniscient abilities that such people, as powerful as they seem to be, really don't have. It's as though they could see into the future; they must've had Odo under surveillance somehow from the beginning of DS9 when the Federation took over, and studying him as much as possible; I have a difficult time believing somehow that they'd come up with a plague that prevented shapeshifters from changing form as they need to in order to survive in the scant amount of time it took. But, then again, this is Star Trek, and in Star Trek, they can go from theory to application in literally seconds, with little to no testing whatsoever.

Enterprise season 4 shows their screw ups. They got utterly played by the Klingon Empire, all 'for the good of Earth'. The only time they're useful is when they give Reed some intel about the sensors on Mars that he uses for a rescue mission. If you want to count the Kelvin timeline, they were an open part of Starfleet Intelligence, used for drafting 20th century supermen to make weapons for them. That ended well.

As for the virus.....

They'd need access to Odo, who willingly volunteered to be screened at Starfleet Medical, and access to Bashir's research on him, and the research done by Dr. Mora Pol. They may have developed a weapon sometime after Starfleet took over DS9 and Bajor was free from the Cardassian clutches, or after they encountered the Founders. That gives them until Odo arrives on Earth during the Federation Civil War two parter. That gives Section 31 a year and a half to come up with a disease and a cure to the disease. Given the headstart Mora Pol and Bashir gave them, all they had to do was wait until Odo came to Earth, touch him once, and then wait for him to link again with the Great Link, which he did less than half a year later.

So, you'd need access to the medical files on Odo, a brilliant medical/science team without the scruples(not that hard, since there are black market genetic doctors who modify children like Bashir, after all) about developing a virus(and/or one who does have the scruples to try and make cures for a hypothetical virus and not tell them what it will be used for),the briefings about the Dominion, and then physical access to Odo(which is the easy part, having a 'clumsy' Starfleet officer tap Odo once is all that's required while he's on Earth).

Still, it gives Federation problems that will bite them in the butt later on. Fanboy defense of the organization because "The Federation needs someone to defend them, the naive fools", is such a sore point for me, because people don't realize that this spoils the milk of what Star Trek is supposed to be.

[MaxWylde]

And you would be wrong.

Why?

Because, you see, in order for a secessionist movement to take place that would be justified as a significant threat that Section 31 might want to be involved with, it would have to be large enough. Having one minor planet or two, or even ten, might not be enough if none of the principle founding worlds are at all involved. A world with more significance, like, say Betazed or, more importantly, Bajor, would probably get their attention, but it's very iffy because the Federation is very humanocentric in terms of who's running the show. They may have the alien or two as President, and give as many aliens a say in the Federation Council, but who's to say they really run the show compared to who you mainly see occupying the military arm of the Federation - Starfleet.

I stand corrected that Section 31 is affiliated with Starfleet Intelligence, but that does not mean they're widely known in the Federation. Remember that neither Bashir nor Sisko nor anyone else on the show knew anything about Section 31. The admiral did, apparently, but we don't know how many more know; the important thing is that kind of secrecy allows them to be disavowed. Not even Starfleet Intelligence has to admit who they are if they're caught. That way, Starfleet Intelligence has this arm that can strike from the shadows doing the most unpleasant aspects of espionage and have some credibility that they know nothing about whatever it's doing or why.

It all depends on what they define a 'potential danger' to the Federation as. For all we know, they focus exclusively on outside threats, but then, they kidnapped Bashir and interrogated him, didn't they?

There is also the issue of overuse. The more they act, the more they could potentially expose themselves for who they are. Sloan probably did too much with regard to Bashir. As I said, it's hard to say what they would do in whatever situation; most situations are probably and nominally handled by more public channels; Oligarchies, by their nature, tend to spread the carrots around to members of their ruling class enough to be able to quash most seditious feeling to the system itself, because nobody's really responsible for the nation on the whole, not even the government. After all, the whole point of Oligarchy is to trade political power for favors. They always turn their nations into pig troughs.

Again, S31 is a terrorist organization, so I wouldn't put it past them to murder random Federation citizens 'for the good of the Federation'. But it's doubtful that they weed out random strong telepaths.

That's a bit strong. Murder random Federation citizens? That doesn't sound like their style. Section 31 may be a bunch of meanie-heads, but they're not terrorists. Terrorism is the act of sowing terror into a populace in order to create some sort of political change. Section 31 didn't do that. They didn't intend on changing the Dominion so much as killing the Founders and bringing an end to the war, because without the Founders, the Dominion would collapse into anarchy. If they wanted to conduct terrorism, which wouldn't work with the Dominion, they'd go to a very innocent target like Dominion subject worlds who are completely dominated by the Jem'Hadar and deliver bombs or plagues or whatever unto them. What the Breen did against Earth in their "Doolittle Raid," could be better described as Terrorism. But against the Dominion, the most logical target for Section 31 activities there was the Founders themselves. Kill them, and the war is over.

They'd need access to Odo, who willingly volunteered to be screened at Starfleet Medical, and access to Bashir's research on him, and the research done by Dr. Mora Pol. They may have developed a weapon sometime after Starfleet took over DS9 and Bajor was free from the Cardassian clutches, or after they encountered the Founders. That gives them until Odo arrives on Earth during the Federation Civil War two parter. That gives Section 31 a year and a half to come up with a disease and a cure to the disease. Given the headstart Mora Pol and Bashir gave them, all they had to do was wait until Odo came to Earth, touch him once, and then wait for him to link again with the Great Link, which he did less than half a year later.

Which is astounding, and I'd say quite magical, all things considered. I think it would've been much better if they just said it was a poison, not a disease or a virus. A poison is more believable. Viruses or other contagions ought to take decades to develop; and even if they do manage it in a year and a half, it's quite presumptive for such a group as Section 31 to hope and pray that Odo will take it to the Great Link before he, himself, begins showing symptoms and/or dies, either by the disease or in action. Real espionage groups, particularly the ones that really have real life successes, don't leave such things to that kind of chance or risk. They act, and if necessary would send in a suicide mission to deliver the package.

Also, notice how the show had to have this disease also be immune from being detected by Starfleet's transporter bio-filter? Suppose that actually worked? Uh-oh! Or, hey! Suppose a writer remembered that you could use a transporter trace on file to remake someone like Odo as he was prior to catching the disease? That's canon. Yeah, the more you consider all this, the more unbelievable it seems, even for Star Trek. I'd believe it if Sloan had said, "Years ago we had contact with someone named Daniels from the future and he told us we were going to have a horrible war against an implacable foe called the Dominion, and he gave us this tailor-made special disease for the Changelings." Weirder things have happened.

Proof? Aside from your gut telling you that the Federation really isn't paradise, what proof do you have that it is?

Oh, geez, where to begin? How about the fact of the Maquis, and how it is that the Federation cares more about peace for its own sake than the rights of their own citizens? How about how it is that it seems that the Federation is a communist society, what with their claims of "no poverty, no hunger or strife," and no money? That's a big strike right there. Or, how it is that it seems that there doesn't seem to be much in the way of private property; we didn't see any vehicles other than Starfleet flying around over the skies of Earth as we saw in Star Wars with Coruscant or Tattooine. A Starfleet JAG tried Bashir's parents. That's strike two. How about them willfully putting non-essential civilians known as families to reside aboard their warships? That's strike three! With Picard daring to say with a straight face in Peak Performance that Starfleet isn't a military organization, that's pure sophistry and propaganda of the likes you'd only find in places like North Korea, where their glorious leader was said to have invented the Hamburger. That tells me that all is not so great in paradise.

[Rocketboy1313]

It is entirely possible that in the 24st century, such considerations would not be sophistry. That the society of the future defines Starfleet as a wise and impartial entity that can be trusted to enforce laws in a number of cases and otherwise is a peace keeping and exploratory fleet. That the militarization of Starfleet came later.

The reason we see so many extreme instances is because the Enterprise is often asked to go to the fringe of the Federation to make peace and security on the ragged edge on a case by case basis. While Deep Space 9 was to be a more permanent and long term function of the same type.

The idea that there being no money or personal property in a post scarcity space faring civilization run by mad scientists being a sign that it is all some Orwellian-farce seems like a value judgement rather than actual evidence.

Not to say there is no evidence. There are human colonies that seem to be apocalyptic (Tasha Yar's homeworld) and the number of giant space monsters is a bit unnerving (I doubt a typical citizen knows enough about that stuff to feel the full existential dread brought on by that knowledge). The Federation may not be perfect, but it is perhaps the "best" fictional universe out there. It is the one I would most like to live in as a normal person certainly.

[ScreamingDoom]

The idea that there being no money or personal property in a post scarcity space faring civilization run by mad scientists being a sign that it is all some Orwellian-farce seems like a value judgement rather than actual evidence

But the Federation isn't a post-scarcity civilization. They still need stuff (wasn't half of Season 1 of TNG -- by far the most communist cheerleading season of Trek -- about trade and trying to get stuff the Federation didn't have?). Hell, they still have mining colonies, despite having access to replicator technology. If these resources were not scarce, then they would not need these things. Even if you say that energy not matter is the reason for mining colonies, that is still a scarce resource. At the absolute least, time, skill and location are still scarce; there can't be two restaurants where Papa Sisko's is, after all, and not everyone is an engineer on the level of Geordi or Scotty, and it still takes time to move around. These are all scarcities.

The fact that the Federation keeps insisting that there's no such thing as scarcity in their civilization can only be reconciled by it being some kind of Orwellian propaganda. The chocolate ration has been increased to one third, despite it being less than it was before.

The only actual post-scarity civilization we see in Star Trek is the Q Continuum. Time, space, and skill are just as easily manipulated by them as anything else in the universe.

[Rocketboy1313]

It is almost like the show was written with a quasi-anthology mindset as the guiding philosophy, by a bunch of people who were not actual scientists and philosophers, but instead writers who put forth imperfectly crafted pie in the sky ideas about an ideal future.

It is why a lot of things, like season 1 TNG (which was a poorly made narrative hot mess) are all but ignored while guiding ideas like, "we are not about money, and everyone has enough to eat and places to live and everyone is literate" still acts as a narrative guideline.

No piece of speculative fiction holds up to too much scrutiny, especially hack sci-fi shows like "Star Trek". It is like the song says, "Repeat to yourself, 'it's just a show, I should really just relax'".

We do not get a day in the life sitcom set on Betazed or Vulcan explaining the nit and grit of how their economics work. Cause that is not what the story is about. You are just supposed to say "okay".

[FaxModem1]

Oh god, this bullshit again. I'm going to deal with this first.

Proof? Aside from your gut telling you that the Federation really isn't paradise, what proof do you have that it is?

Oh, geez, where to begin? How about the fact of the Maquis, and how it is that the Federation cares more about peace for its own sake than the rights of their own citizens? How about how it is that it seems that the Federation is a communist society, what with their claims of "no poverty, no hunger or strife," and no money? That's a big strike right there. Or, how it is that it seems that there doesn't seem to be much in the way of private property; we didn't see any vehicles other than Starfleet flying around over the skies of Earth as we saw in Star Wars with Coruscant or Tattooine. A Starfleet JAG tried Bashir's parents. That's strike two. How about them willfully putting non-essential civilians known as families to reside aboard their warships? That's strike three! With Picard daring to say with a straight face in Peak Performance that Starfleet isn't a military organization, that's pure sophistry and propaganda of the likes you'd only find in places like North Korea, where their glorious leader was said to have invented the Hamburger. That tells me that all is not so great in paradise.

First off, private property and money:

We have at least THREE companies that operate in Federation space:
Dytallix Mining Company A company responsible for mining a few planets in the Federation.
Bank of Bolias: An actual bank that has had heists within it, bank accounts, and property held within it by planets and economies.
Kasidy Yates Interstellar Freights: Kasidy's freight company that moves freight from Point A to Point B.

As for civilian transport:
Rigelian freighters are flown in UFP space, and the Rigelians are Federation members. Odd that they are allowed to have private property in a communist dictatorship.
We also have the Dorian, the Arcos, and the SS Augyn.
Kasidy Yates also didn't seem to be arrested by Sisko and company for being a member of the Bourgeoisie for having ownership and control of a ship. Nor was Kivas Fajo for owning the Jovis. Rather, they were arrested for their actions against the Federation or members of Starfleet.
The rarity of these, especially with Quark only being able to have a ship due to it being a gift, rather than him having one docked at DS9, seems due to the expense of having a ship, rather than the form of government one is in.
For intra-planetary travel, they have transporters, which makes travelling and transport by shuttle or freighter rather quaint and for those who aren't in a hurry, so of course there wouldn't be heavy traffic around Earth.
Quark was also somehow paid by Starfleet officers who frequented his establishment, so they must have been earning some sort of currency to pay their bar tabs.
Earth may not have money, but it does seem that the rest of the Federation does.

Regarding Starfleet dealing with civilians:
A Starfleet JAG was the one talking to Sisko about Julian Bashir's case, since he is in Starfleet, and arranged a plea deal for Bashir's father. Civilians do testify in Military court, after all. Notice that the Arbiter for the case between the publishing company and the Doctor for the Doctor's holo-novel was a civilian in a suit, and only had Starfleet officers as character witnesses, not as judges or jury. There is separate courts for military and civilians. Guess that doesn't change in 300 years.

Yeah, them putting civilians in Starfleet ships was NOT a wise move. Thankfully, they stopped doing that after Wolf 359, as you'll notice that Defiant, the Enterprise-E, Voyager, Prometheus, Equinox and any other ships put into service after it stopped that practice. Guess peace with the Klingons and absence by the Romulans made Starfleet relax, in the same way that civilians live on US military bases.

As for Starfleet not being a military:
Yeah, their insistence on it not being a military is odd. But it does make sense, as the Federation has more of a Coast Guard type role for Starfleet, with it both guarding their borders, and doing missions of scientific discovery and exploration. And ask anyone who served, the Coast Guard isn't really the military.

As for the Maquis, keep in mind that the Federation did offer, and followed through with, giving the colonists equal and/or better planets to settle so that they WOULDN'T be under the Cardassians' boot-heel. Unlike North Korea or the Soviet Union, they do seem to give a shit about what happens to their citizens. The Maquis left Federation space under their own authority, and went off to fight the Cardassians.


Side-note. Jake Sisko, kid reporter, is clearly used to 'Freedom of the Press', or he wouldn't have pressed the issue to Weyoun. Guess this means that people within the Federation are clearly used to be informed and not having their journalists censored by the government they're living in.

[ScreamingDoom]

We do not get a day in the life sitcom set on Betazed or Vulcan explaining the nit and grit of how their economics work. Cause that is not what the story is about. You are just supposed to say "okay".

Right, of course, the real reason the Star Trek makes no sense is because the writers understand even less about economics than they do about science, but that's not what we're discussing here. In universe, the Federation is not post scarcity and its insistence that it is remains a glaring internal contradiction. That's the problem; the fiction isn't even consistent with its own rules and statements.

It's like having a story where its stated unequivocally that vampires can't walk in sunlight unprotected, then have vampires walk around in sunlight naked, but still insist that no vampire can ever walk in sunlight. There's a blatant contradiction there.

[FaxModem1]

Now to deal with the rest of this post.

And you would be wrong.

Why?

Because, you see, in order for a secessionist movement to take place that would be justified as a significant threat that Section 31 might want to be involved with, it would have to be large enough. Having one minor planet or two, or even ten, might not be enough if none of the principle founding worlds are at all involved. A world with more significance, like, say Betazed or, more importantly, Bajor, would probably get their attention, but it's very iffy because the Federation is very humanocentric in terms of who's running the show. They may have the alien or two as President, and give as many aliens a say in the Federation Council, but who's to say they really run the show compared to who you mainly see occupying the military arm of the Federation - Starfleet.

I stand corrected that Section 31 is affiliated with Starfleet Intelligence, but that does not mean they're widely known in the Federation. Remember that neither Bashir nor Sisko nor anyone else on the show knew anything about Section 31. The admiral did, apparently, but we don't know how many more know; the important thing is that kind of secrecy allows them to be disavowed. Not even Starfleet Intelligence has to admit who they are if they're caught. That way, Starfleet Intelligence has this arm that can strike from the shadows doing the most unpleasant aspects of espionage and have some credibility that they know nothing about whatever it's doing or why.

Prove that the Federation is discriminatory towards non-human citizens. Or are you confusing Star Trek's UFP with Star Wars's Galactic Empire?

Second, so if an artist or political leader was popular enough, S31 would take them out. Do you not see why this might be a problem?

It all depends on what they define a 'potential danger' to the Federation as. For all we know, they focus exclusively on outside threats, but then, they kidnapped Bashir and interrogated him, didn't they?

There is also the issue of overuse. The more they act, the more they could potentially expose themselves for who they are. Sloan probably did too much with regard to Bashir. As I said, it's hard to say what they would do in whatever situation; most situations are probably and nominally handled by more public channels; Oligarchies, by their nature, tend to spread the carrots around to members of their ruling class enough to be able to quash most seditious feeling to the system itself, because nobody's really responsible for the nation on the whole, not even the government. After all, the whole point of Oligarchy is to trade political power for favors. They always turn their nations into pig troughs.

And please point to the episode where we see political favors exchanged in the Federation by the Elite Oligarchs. Or the existence of Elite Oligarchs in the first place. Otherwise, you're full of hot air regarding the oppression present in the Federation.

Again, S31 is a terrorist organization, so I wouldn't put it past them to murder random Federation citizens 'for the good of the Federation'. But it's doubtful that they weed out random strong telepaths.

That's a bit strong. Murder random Federation citizens? That doesn't sound like their style. Section 31 may be a bunch of meanie-heads, but they're not terrorists. Terrorism is the act of sowing terror into a populace in order to create some sort of political change. Section 31 didn't do that. They didn't intend on changing the Dominion so much as killing the Founders and bringing an end to the war, because without the Founders, the Dominion would collapse into anarchy. If they wanted to conduct terrorism, which wouldn't work with the Dominion, they'd go to a very innocent target like Dominion subject worlds who are completely dominated by the Jem'Hadar and deliver bombs or plagues or whatever unto them. What the Breen did against Earth in their "Doolittle Raid," could be better described as Terrorism. But against the Dominion, the most logical target for Section 31 activities there was the Founders themselves. Kill them, and the war is over.

Considering that Sloan was going to murder Bashir once he was satisfied that he was a spy, and therefore a threat to the Federation, it's not a stretch.

They'd need access to Odo, who willingly volunteered to be screened at Starfleet Medical, and access to Bashir's research on him, and the research done by Dr. Mora Pol. They may have developed a weapon sometime after Starfleet took over DS9 and Bajor was free from the Cardassian clutches, or after they encountered the Founders. That gives them until Odo arrives on Earth during the Federation Civil War two parter. That gives Section 31 a year and a half to come up with a disease and a cure to the disease. Given the headstart Mora Pol and Bashir gave them, all they had to do was wait until Odo came to Earth, touch him once, and then wait for him to link again with the Great Link, which he did less than half a year later.

Which is astounding, and I'd say quite magical, all things considered. I think it would've been much better if they just said it was a poison, not a disease or a virus. A poison is more believable. Viruses or other contagions ought to take decades to develop; and even if they do manage it in a year and a half, it's quite presumptive for such a group as Section 31 to hope and pray that Odo will take it to the Great Link before he, himself, begins showing symptoms and/or dies, either by the disease or in action. Real espionage groups, particularly the ones that really have real life successes, don't leave such things to that kind of chance or risk. They act, and if necessary would send in a suicide mission to deliver the package.

Also, notice how the show had to have this disease also be immune from being detected by Starfleet's transporter bio-filter? Suppose that actually worked? Uh-oh! Or, hey! Suppose a writer remembered that you could use a transporter trace on file to remake someone like Odo as he was prior to catching the disease? That's canon. Yeah, the more you consider all this, the more unbelievable it seems, even for Star Trek. I'd believe it if Sloan had said, "Years ago we had contact with someone named Daniels from the future and he told us we were going to have a horrible war against an implacable foe called the Dominion, and he gave us this tailor-made special disease for the Changelings." Weirder things have happened.

Point, but Bashir made a vaccine for the Blight within a couple of weeks. Star Trek scientists and doctors are incredible at what they do.

[CareerKnight]

It all depends on what they define a 'potential danger' to the Federation as. For all we know, they focus exclusively on outside threats, but then, they kidnapped Bashir and interrogated him, didn't they?

There is no evidence Section 31 cares about potential internal threats to the Federation and I would goes so far as to say that the fact that most people in the Federation don't have any idea an organization like them exists (not even in the form of myth or rumor) as proof that they don't since any such activity would greatly increases the likelihood of people learning about them so it would strain credibility too far that they had been doing such operations since the founding of the Federation and are still completely unknown. As for Bashir, they were evaluating whether or not he was a Dominion spy (and even that is an assumption, for all we know the whole thing was just a recruitment test and all potential recruits for Section 31 go through something similar) and if he was that would make him an agent of the Dominion and therefore an external threat (and any arguments to the contrary would be seen as pointless semantics that wouldn't change the reality of the situation by Section 31).

Considering that Sloan was going to murder Bashir once he was satisfied that he was a spy, and therefore a threat to the Federation, it's not a stretch.

That's not a terrorist act. Terrorism is all about sending a message with no regard for collateral damage, indeed collateral damage is usually the point. Terrorists want to create enough fear and panic to get their way. None of that describes Section 31.

Hell, they still have mining colonies, despite having access to replicator technology. If these resources were not scarce, then they would not need these things. Even if you say that energy not matter is the reason for mining colonies, that is still a scarce resource.

So because the Federation is still taking in raw resources there is scarcity... wut? You do realize it is possible to still be taking in more resources and not have any shortages right? It just means supply is meeting the demand, the fact that said supply needs replenishing doesn't change that as long as the first part holds true.