ENT - Bound

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

So much for the tolerant left.

[lightningbarer]

Well, that's an interesting example to use. Star Trek literally went off the air after five episodes after this. Discovery hardly has any Fanservice, especially involving a main cast member (of course, you don't watch Discovery, so you wouldn't know that).

Interestingly, this happened just around 2005, when the Internet became really popular. Strange. I wonder if there's some connection between the Internet and Sexy Pics... On the other hand, Game of Thrones had lotsa sex and that didn't seem to hurt at all.

Sir, you DO know that doing this allows me to bring up the evidence of abysmally low ratings for Discovery right? You do know that bringing up the end of Enterprise allows me to shift this from an argument about catsuits to whether the ideas in Discovery are liked by the fandom - as the fandom has embraced the Orville more than Discovery right?

See what you're trying to do here is state that because there's 1 show - that is failing so badly that it needs to try and fully rebrand with short homages to TOS that still are more flash than substance - that the idea of fan service is just stupid.

When the reason why Enterprise failed wasn't because of Fan Service, it wasn't because of the rise of the internet, it wasn't even because people were sick of Star Trek.

What people weren't happy with was the stupid, useless, boring plots that goes nowhere and does nothing, that insults the legacy of Star Trek and pays no respect to the giants holding it up.

Now...
I want to ask you, with the abysmal ratings and the very negative response from the core fanbase, do you think what I just said above^^^ could be applied to Discovery as well as Enterprise?

[lightningbarer]

1. Yeah, pretty much. I'm saying I can understand where other people are coming from. Which is a point I made previously. Which you quoted.

2. Yeah, you certainly wouldn't want to make any changes to something you already like that might make it better or anything.

3. As for my position on fan service - I rather like it, I just feel that like many other storytelling elements, it can be done well or done poorly.

4. Yeah, it's not like I'm literally quoting you or anything...

5. I apply that equally between the sexes, and it has nothing to do with objectification.

6. It honestly baffles me that you could make an association between attractiveness and intelligence, because I sure didn't say that.

I don't know if you know this Admiral, but making longform posts hurts people here for some reason, try and be more concise in the future, think of others k?
1. that wasn't what the quote was talking about and you know it.

2. so you know what should and shouldn't be seen in a thing people like huh? Wow...I mean it'd be horrible if I said that's what you've been harping on about this whole time huh?

3.I don't believe you.

4. I was referring to this:

Except I didn't say that I want fan service to be eliminated.

5&6. I don't believe you, your words say otherwise, why else would you cite a woman and say "well if she's in a catsuit she's obviously an idiot, now if she were in a victorian full length ballgown sh'es clearly a genius"(and yes I know what I'm doing and don't apologise for it)

Your own words condemn you Admiral
See, the horrible fact about this kind of thing is that it only is a successful thing for you until someone hears or sees something they can use against you.

[Admiral X]

1. that wasn't what the quote was talking about and you know it.

So I can see were people are coming from, which is that it comes from wanting the show to distance itself from that reputation for schlock.

2. so you know what should and shouldn't be seen in a thing people like huh? Wow...I mean it'd be horrible if I said that's what you've been harping on about this whole time huh?

I know a fair bit about storytelling and what you can say with visuals and that sort of thing. It's honestly kind of funny that you think I'm advocating for censorship here when all I straight up said I'd have used the Risa episode as a beach/spa episode and had T'Pol in a bikini.

3.I don't believe you.

Okay. You seem to just want to fight people, so whatever.

5&6. I don't believe you, your words say otherwise, why else would you cite a woman and say "well if she's in a catsuit she's obviously an idiot, now if she were in a victorian full length ballgown sh'es clearly a genius"(and yes I know what I'm doing and don't apologise for it)

That isn't what I said. And if they stuck Trip or Archer in a catsuit or some equivalent that showed off their body when the show is trying to be serious and/or dramatic, I'd have trouble taking them seriously as well.

Your own words condemn you Admiral
See, the horrible fact about this kind of thing is that it only is a successful thing for you until someone hears or sees something they can use against you.

If my own words condemned me, you wouldn't have to lie about what I actually said.

[clearspira]

Admiral may not be saying it but I certainly will: yes, i do take women less seriously if they wear a catsuit, just as I would take a man less seriously if he wore a catsuit too. And newsflash: Welcome to the real world. Where choices you make actually matter.

Also, Admiral may not be saying it but I certainly will: yes, most shows would be better without fanservice. It adds absolutely nothing to the product to tell an actress to get her cleavage out apart from getting the audience to make fapping sounds. Because that is what it comes down to for me: we are not talking about T'Pol because she's not real, we are talking about Jolene Blalock and the male writers who have designed the character she plays. At some point Berman and Braga sat down and said ''you know what our super smart science officer needs? a catsuit that amplifies her tits and ass.''

Do you remember what Chuck pointed out about how Spock, Tuvok and T'Pol's Pon Farr was handled? Spock got a legendary character piece, Tuvok got to solemnly meditate and then mate with a hologram off camera, and T'Pol got to strip down to her panties for thirty minutes... or rather, Jolene Blalock on a freezing cold set in front of twenty guys got to strip down to her panties for thirty minutes.

Thank you ClearSpira, at least you're being honest with this whole thing.

You don't care that you're in the VAST minority of a fandom, you just want it to change to suit your feelings because you say it is wrong for some reason.

At least you're honest with your attempt at inserting your own ideas and agenda into fandoms that don't want them.

Because there's one thing you haven't thought of yet.
If Star Trek has had fan service for decades
And if Anime has had fan service for decades
And it continues to have that.
And the ratings for the shows don't decline

The fandom is fine with it and don't see a problem.

You see a problem.
So its a problem for you to deal with.

By taking my advice and not watching shows that offend you so much.

Just like I do when I don't watch shows that pander and appeal to a current mindset of needing to appeal to everyone while actually lecturing to everyone about how one certain group are the problem.

So
Are you going to do it? Leave a fandom that upsets you?
Or are you going to stamp your feet and demand that we change to suit you?

Nah, mate. Nah. You read what I wrote but you did not understand either willfully or out of stupidity. I never once said that I want anything to change, I said that i disagree with it.

Now repeat after me:
"I will not see what i want to see"
"I will not see what i want to see"
"I will not see what i want to see"
...
"I will not see what i want to see"

[lightningbarer]

I know a fair bit about storytelling and what you can say with visuals and that sort of thing. It's honestly kind of funny that you think I'm advocating for censorship here when all I straight up said I'd have used the Risa episode as a beach/spa episode and had T'Pol in a bikini.

Are you going to tell me that you know whats best for people now?
While saying you don't like fan service
And saying that women who are rapists are victims
At the same time as you try and say you're not doing these things?
Because if you are...well you're not showing people a good front, after all I'm being polite and calm with all of you, I'm not swearing and I'm not insulting people.

Oh and I've already shown that you're okay with removing fan service, because "it isn't needed and detracts from the plot" you've mentioned several things from TPols catsuit to the stuff in Space Battleship Yamato - nice attempt at trying to show weeb cred btw. But if you want to do that, try mentioning something even less well known, like Starzinger, I mean the princess in that is practically naked half the time.

Okay. You seem to just want to fight people, so whatever.

Hay, I'm not the one who came at a person for saying Chuck was using doublethink on three rapists and calling them victims...

That isn't what I said. And if they stuck Trip or Archer in a catsuit or some equivalent that showed off their body when the show is trying to be serious and/or dramatic, I'd have trouble taking them seriously as well.

And that's why - every time - I've said something I've added "I know what I'm doing and I'm okay with it".
See what I did was "paraphrase" you, you didn't directly say that because TPol is in a catsuit she's an idiot, you suggested that because she's in it, she isn't to be taken seriously. It speaks to your view of those who don't share your opinion, that if they don't dress the way YOU think they should, YOU will have a very negative opinion of them. Likely you'd have similar thoughts on Louise Wightman, a stripper who was also a psychologist, because she doesn't fit the mold you say she should, you'll look down on her.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Wightman

Rather than go into that much detail, I stated the simple truth that you think because TPol wears a skin tight suit, she's not worth listening to. You can argue that's not what you said but in the previous posts I've given your exact words with highlighted portions. Hell even ClearSpira commented on it.
Its either thats what you think or you weren't thinking when you wrote it, either way its either your thoughts on scantily clad women, one is conscious and the other subconscious (btw, this kind of thing, this is what I was saying when I said Chuck put himself in a pickle, good for you to put yourself there too)

If my own words condemned me, you wouldn't have to lie about what I actually said.

I know that hearing that its not the EXACT words you said will stump you a little bit, but when a person has to go into detail about a paraphrasing of a statement where you said "This was actually why T'Pol's catsuit always bothered me, because it really tended to make it difficult to take her seriously or served to undermine anything she said a bit."
I'm not the one who is lying.

I'm merely using your own words to condemn you, your own logic to pin you to the condemnation and then repeating this idea to you.
And the best part is, I'm not doing anything horrible here, I'm not being offensive, I'm not being rude, I'm not being a bully or harasser.
I'm just calmly and carefully explaining why you think you have the right to dictate what a fandom wants.

See there's something I purposely left out with my statements about the things I don't watch.

I'm a very big Star Trek fan, all the series, all the movies I've had them all on both VHS and DVD's in my life and I hate having to walk away from the series that gives me so much joy.

but I do it because if I were to watch Discovery, I wouldn't be able to watch it without going "Spock doesn't have a sister" "why didn't they have spore drive at Wolf 359/during Voyager" "why are they doing a nationalist movement in a interstellar empire?" "why do the Klingons look like nothing we've seen before?" and many other things

Because I cannot parse why these things are there for anything other than superficial and obvious reasons. its why I say that Discovery should have been a 25th century show rather than 23rd, it would make everything - Except Michael Burnham - actually make sense.

And because they're superficial and obvious, I choose to not watch them.
Because Star Trek isn't supposed to be something that breaks canon the instant they say one line of dialogue.

So rather than state "I want Star Trek Discovery to be what I want." I walk away from that.
And so do the majority of Star Trek fans.

YOU have stated that because of TPol wearing a catsuit and other fan service items, that rather than NOT WATCH. YOU want those things to change.

So which of us is the bad actor here, Admiral X? Is it me for saying "yeah, have your silly ideas, its not for me" or is it you "I don't like this, think its stupid and it shouldn't be in Trek."

There's a key difference between me and you, Admiral.

I don't want to control what other people enjoy.

You do.

And this goes for everyone who says something as superficial as "fan service should be removed". None of you actually care about anything or anyone other than number 1, yourself and only yourselves.

And that, that is what this has been ultimately about.

Yeah very long post.
Sorry, but well you weren't getting the hints I was giving out so I needed to spell it out for you.

[lightningbarer]

Nah, mate. Nah. You read what I wrote but you did not understand either willfully or out of stupidity. I never once said that I want anything to change, I said that i disagree with it.

Now repeat after me:
"I will not see what i want to see"
"I will not see what i want to see"
"I will not see what i want to see"
...
"I will not see what i want to see"

So you're perfectly okay with keeping fan service in Star Trek then? Cool, we only disagree on the fact that its there.
No problems then.

I'm sure that you'll come back with the "yeah sure it's fine in there and people shouldn't demand for its removal" and you won't either ignore this or try and argue the toss.

[lightningbarer]

and I did understand everything ClearSpira,

I just cut around the fluff and feathers to get to your point.

Now you can disprove me here by showing that you do indeed think keeping all forms of fan service in media is fine.

But I think that'd clash with your "I don't like it" mantra from earlier

[TGLS]

Sir, you DO know that doing this allows me to bring up the evidence of abysmally low ratings for Discovery right?

That you got where exactly? Quick google for Discovery ratings gives review scores, not viewership ratings, where even non critic scores hover around 7.5. In the absence of viewership, we can only take the fact that CBS is continuing to spend upwards of a hundred million dollars a season below the line on the show and recently began introducing spinoffs.

You do know that bringing up the end of Enterprise allows me to shift this from an argument about catsuits to whether the ideas in Discovery are liked by the fandom - as the fandom has embraced the Orville more than Discovery right?

Which, despite including Macfarlane's Humor™, doesn't bother with putting a main cast member in a catsuit. Given that Orville is an homage to Berman-era Trek, and that both Discovery and Orville dropped fanservice on a similar scale to prior Trek, the idea is either dated or a bad idea to begin with.

See what you're trying to do here is state that because there's 1 show - that is failing so badly that it needs to try and fully rebrand with short homages to TOS that still are more flash than substance - that the idea of fan service is just stupid.

I'm not attacking whether Fanservice is a bad idea or not. I'm attacking your example with the latest iteration that dropped it for little ill effect.

When the reason why Enterprise failed ... was the stupid, useless, boring plots that goes nowhere and does nothing, that insults the legacy of Star Trek and pays no respect to the giants holding it up.

You want to know why I think there was so much fanservice in Enterprise over previous Trek? They knew the writing was crap and compensated by shoving tits into it.

Do you think what I just said above^^^ could be applied to Discovery as well as Enterprise?

My understanding is that there was so much behind the scenes drama that the first season of the show was jerked around all over the place. At least the showrunners don't think they can paper over problems with tits.

--

Here, enjoy an argument clinic.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2hwqn9

[lightningbarer]

That you got where exactly? Quick google for Discovery ratings gives review scores, not viewership ratings, where even non critic scores hover around 7.5. In the absence of viewership, we can only take the fact that CBS is continuing to spend upwards of a hundred million dollars a season below the line on the show and recently began introducing spinoffs.

I really do love it when you people do this, when you are so desperate to try and "win" that you rush to find factual evidence of things while ignoring the massive glaring mistake in your logic.

It was "ended" after 2 seasons.

The VAST majority of fan interaction is negative towards it

The subscription services towards CBS All Access have been in the toilet for ages.

But yeah, if you want to ignore all that and point to the fact that a company that has been making massive amounts of mistakes in how it treats fan reactions and responses and focus on "reviews"(without referencing any place to do this...you're using Rotten Tomatoes aren't you) then I can understand why you'd think you're in the right.
You'd be wrong for doing this, but I can get how you'd think this.

Which, despite including Macfarlane's Humor™, doesn't bother with putting a main cast member in a catsuit. Given that Orville is an homage to Berman-era Trek, and that both Discovery and Orville dropped fanservice on a similar scale to prior Trek, the idea is either dated or a bad idea to begin with.

Is that what we're going to do now, focus solely on the fan service? Because if we are we can do that, but I'd rather ask why you think bringing up solely the fan service when your point is moot. I'll be linking images here so as not to make it too long - there's too many who get upset about that here - so

https://res.cloudinary.com/trackingboard/image/upload/t_w780/FROM-FROALA-4884bfe8

https://pmctvline2.files.wordpress.com/2019/04/orville-recap-season-2-finale.jpg?w=620&h=420&crop=1

Short shorts and a womans chest on full display.
That's fan service, I mean its not what YOU say is fan service, but it is fan service. They don't "need" to be dressed like that do they?

But because it doesn't fit your narrative and you cannot complain about it being objectification, you ignore it. So you can then point to the one woman in a catsuit and complain that is sexist or whatever.
Sounds more like you have a problem with catsuits.

And if I'd wonder what the women who like wearing those would think to be told they're less than others, for simply wearing a piece of clothing. I'm sure you don't mean that though do you...you're not a hypocrite who lies to make their case at all...

I'm not attacking whether Fanservice is a bad idea or not. I'm attacking your example with the latest iteration that dropped it for little ill effect.

You keep telling yourself that dude, see the instant someone says "I don't like this" my first response is the same "well don't watch it" but people like yourself say "no, I want this to change to suit my ideas of what is right and wrong, I'll then proceed to insult and demean everyone else who disagrees with this by asserting moral authority over them."

All from kicking your pacifier out of the pram and crying about not getting your way.

My understanding is that there was so much behind the scenes drama that the first season of the show was jerked around all over the place. At least the showrunners don't think they can paper over problems with tits.

There's so much to unpack here in this short 2 part sentence...
Enterprise failed because the fans hated it and by season 4 there wasn't enough trust left in us to keep watching even though the series got better. B&B did this.

Now you're saying that Discovery have a positive because they're not trying to "paper over the problems with tits".

No

They're completely ignoring the problems and the response of the fans.
And its very simple, very simple indeed as to why they're ignoring the fans and doing nothing.
They gave into the mob of easily offended, overly aggressive internet users who jump on trends and try and make themselves seem "hip" and "cool" by making many posts about them.
These people spam out masses about said series and the showrunners see this.

They think that this is what the fans want now, because the amount of stuff out there seems to imply it.
So they give ground on one or more issues and bow to the pressures of the mob.

Then something like the Jo Rowling incident happens, where she makes a single tweet that the mob doesn't like and suddenly her life is in flames and her career in tatters, all positive credit and influence lost in the sea of irrational and insane hate sent her way.
This mob doesn't forgive or forget the people who have "wronged them". and that person is then seen as cancer to them.
And ANYONE who associates with that person then becomes part of the same problem.

So a person like Jo Rowling is shunned from the mainstream and left to drift, no one other than the very brave or those who don't care trying to help her.
The showrunners of Discovery, Who, Star Wars, Marvel, etc, they see this and they think. "Shit, I've put my head in that lions jaws and it just ate her...a woman who was seen as the single biggest progressive ever. What will happen if I take a single step away from things?"

They know
The mob will attack them and destroy their lives.
These people want to earn money and be respected in their industry.
So they don't do anything, they just chug along, letting more of the actual fans become disillusioned with their thing until the only people who are left are the mob.

And remember, the mob only does things to seem to be "hip" and "cool". So as soon as the support is gone, they drop the thing and start on what we - the fans - have moved to, to escape from them.

So yeah, I understand why they're doing what they're doing and why it will be run right into the dirt along with how Star Wars has been, how Marvel is being, how Dr Who has been, how Ghostbusters has been, how Oceans 11 has been.

There's many things that have been literally co-opted by parasitic monsters who have zero charisma and enjoyment in their lives, who are so utterly average and boring that they see what is popular and jump on that - not because they like it, but because they get to talk about it and be seen as cool - run it into the dirt, turn around in those dirt filled ashes and say "its not my fault this happened, you all are just a bunch of (insert word here)."

So rather than do that, TGLS.
Why not - if the fan service in anime and sci-fi offends you so much - just leave and let us evil misogynists who worship the women on the screen though we secretly hate all these women for some reason to our sick evil misogynistic things?

Or is it a far simpler solution for you?

"I don't like it and it must be purged" Is that it?