JK Rowling Backlash

[TGLS]

Literal Nazis burned all the literature on trans people in the 30s so we're only in the past 5-10 years advancing our understanding of how and why people experience gender outside their assigned sex.

Can I ask why all the studies of transgender people were only stored in Germany? Was it part of the Treaty of Versailles?

(I'm being flip about the second question, not the first.)

[CmdrKing]

Well, this has most of the story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft

tl;dr though, there was basically one guy in Germany who was systematically studying sex, sexuality, and gender, they were doing some of the first hormone therapies, and as the Nazis came to power one of their first targets was the institute and its archives, both to eliminate the "degenerate" knowledge and to track down the various patients and participants in studies.
Like y'know how homosexuals were one of the people put into the camps? That's how they found a lot of them.

[LittleRaven]

I mean, I could say "The Aesthetic's core argument hinges on assigning primacy to presentation in determining the validity of a trans person's gender, which is also a core argument of transmedicalism.

To which I would probably reply "In that video, the character that makes that argument, Justine, is consistently framed throughout the video as being in the wrong and ultimately gets rather soundly put in her place by Tabby."

Most subsequent videos from ContraPoints have at one level or another been about this same topic, without ever challenging the underlying premise but instead attempting to claim this view somehow does not inherently invalidate non-binary identities in an attempt to deflect criticism... while also inserting an increasing pattern of jabs at those same critics.

In the sense that many ContraPoints videos have been on the issue of gender identity, which is clearly something she's been thinking about a lot, I suppose this is true. (I don't notice the jabs, but then, I wouldn't expect to.) But given that no theory is ever presented as 'correct,' and that her last video on the subject, "TransTrenders," ended with Justine explicitly throwing her hands up in frustration and declaring that maybe there IS no answer, (a view Natalie confirms is currently her own in "Cancelled") I'd humbly suggest that you may be reading more than is intended into her videos.

Oh also this happened: https://lesbianchemicalplant.tumblr.com/post/190123452996/text-of-tweet-thread-by-anthony-dellarosa "

I have no idea what bearing this has on anything. Am I supposed to be upset that another Twitter soldier has fallen under attack? I'm sorry that Anthony finds their current bed uncomfortable, but they kind of made it. If you're going to dish out the heat, you should probably be prepared for blowback.

But anyway, I'm not at all surprised that you disagree with Natalie on the subject of gender identity. As far as I can tell, there is absolutely no consensus on that issue. The experts who have spent their entire lives thinking about the issue and who have written enough books to fill a small library don't agree with each other. I'm not surprised that you don't like Natalie. People frequently don't like each other for all kinds of reasons. I WAS surprised at the apparent depth of your well of animosity towards her, because from where I'm sitting, she's done more to advance the trans-cause than virtually anyone else out there, and she's generally recognized for her efforts by virtually all the big names in the field. That is all.

Wherein I'd have to explain "viewing sex as biologically binary is a simplification for 8 year olds that does not actually explain the real world", well I just don't have that kind of time usually.

And I'd hate to impose on you. So don't sweat that part.

Or, you could just believe people when they tell you how they experience gender. That seems a lot more likely to make the world better.

Do you REALLY believe this? You think the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal was WRONG to tell Jessica Yaniv to go pound sand? The state didn't make a HUGE mistake with Karen White?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/transgender-activist-jessica-yaniv-loses-wax-her-balls-complaint-against-salon-workers

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

[CmdrKing]

[To which I would probably reply "In that video, the character that makes that argument, Justine, is consistently framed throughout the video as being in the wrong and ultimately gets rather soundly put in her place by Tabby."

I mean, you could argue that, but it's a hard sell in a video in which Tabby meekly acquiesces to every single demand Justine makes of her and the end is an ambiguous moment of "oh we're all fucked".
Nevermind that the entire video hinges on the assumption that Tabby, aka Natalie Wynn, would be clocked at a thousand paces.

If you're not clear on why a channel with multiple million views engaging in targeted harassment against critics is unacceptable and a sign previous bad acts were malicious rather than accidental, you're further behind in your reading than I thought.

[LittleRaven]

I mean, you could argue that, but it's a hard sell in a video in which Tabby meekly acquiesces to every single demand Justine makes of her and the end is an ambiguous moment of "oh we're all fucked".

But Tabby doesn't do that. She tries the shoes on once and then throws them back in Justine's face once they don't work out, along with a pretty epic "the reason you suck" speech.

Or at least, that's how I took the video. I get it, you walked away with a different interpretation, but assuming yours to be universal seems...uncharacteristic for you.

If you're not clear on why a channel with multiple million views engaging in targeted harassment against critics is unacceptable and a sign previous bad acts were malicious rather than accidental, you're further behind in your reading than I thought.

But....she didn't do that. She read a large number of tweets that were attacking her and her friends to show the kinds of things that she's been subjected to in the last few months. Nowhere did she try to "target" anyone. I'm sure that Anthony has been subjected to a certain amount of pushback as a result of her eloquent speaking habits, (although I think it's worth noting that Natalie is not the FIRST internet personality Anthony has found herself crosswise with) but I think a wiser person than I once said that engaging on the internet comes with "the inevitable shit-stirrers and nazis taking advantage." Anthony has been online and trans since at least 2015...they have to know how this game is played. It's pretty easy to NOT get involved in Twitter Wars if you don't want to.

Anyway, we don't have to keep going down this rabbit hole. You are 100% entitled to not like Natalie. I am not trying to convince you otherwise. I was just surprised...that's all.

But seriously, I get that "believe people when they tell you how they experience gender" is perhaps useful as personal philosophy, but as public policy....it strikes me as the kind of simplification we use for 8 year olds, and I have trouble believing you actually subscribe to it. Although I can think of at least a couple of people who really hope you do.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The dynamic between the viewpoints is framed in a philosophical course. It's typically a response system from one side to another that attempt to analyze a natural phenomena with as little unanswered questions as possible. The idea isn't that one viewpoint is judged as being ultimately right or wrong. It's that the assessment from one side asks rational questions that the other side can't situate for.

The point of philosophy is to show that the logic of the person before you is fallacious; a systematic process to expose holes.

[clearspira]

Well, this has most of the story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft

tl;dr though, there was basically one guy in Germany who was systematically studying sex, sexuality, and gender, they were doing some of the first hormone therapies, and as the Nazis came to power one of their first targets was the institute and its archives, both to eliminate the "degenerate" knowledge and to track down the various patients and participants in studies.
Like y'know how homosexuals were one of the people put into the camps? That's how they found a lot of them.

Maybe this is true I don't know, but I have to say that it sounds just a bit too convenient to blame the Nazis for putting trans rights back decades, and it sounds just a bit too convenient that there was only one guy studying this. ''Ahead of his time'' does not do this guy justice.

The one thing I do know though is that these ''hormone therapies'' were developed for medical reasons completely separate to gender reassignment surgery so I do feel its inclusion in your list is a bit disingenuous.

[CmdrKing]

Self-ID is the only ethical public policy. The possibility of abuse beyond the scope of things that are already illegal anyway are both remote and not worth the trade-off of making it possible to exclude the majority of trans people from accessing transition.

Well, this has most of the story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft

tl;dr though, there was basically one guy in Germany who was systematically studying sex, sexuality, and gender, they were doing some of the first hormone therapies, and as the Nazis came to power one of their first targets was the institute and its archives, both to eliminate the "degenerate" knowledge and to track down the various patients and participants in studies.
Like y'know how homosexuals were one of the people put into the camps? That's how they found a lot of them.

Maybe this is true I don't know, but I have to say that it sounds just a bit too convenient to blame the Nazis for putting trans rights back decades, and it sounds just a bit too convenient that there was only one guy studying this. ''Ahead of his time'' does not do this guy justice.

The one thing I do know though is that these ''hormone therapies'' were developed for medical reasons completely separate to gender reassignment surgery so I do feel its inclusion in your list is a bit disingenuous.

The hormones existed for other reasons sure, but trying them for trans patients and working out proper dosing is still data that was lost.

More broadly... when this material was rediscovered in the late 70s, the doctors involved created a bunch of requirements that amounted to “we’ll only treat you if we would bang you afterward, and also burn down your entire life, disappear, and start over elsewhere.”
So only a narrow slice of trans women sought or were granted transition tools. Good luck trans lesbians and trans men generally.

This sort of thing is very likely the reason why trans people have become so much more visible in the past 5-10 years: social media has allowed trans communities to exist and people to help one another navigate the remnants of these systems, as well as realizing the breadth of trans experiences was so large compared to the assumptions of these 40 year old gatekeeping guidelines.

But if you have a more open, systematic and public set of transition and many more trans people in the 30s, able to document their own experiences and advocate for themselves? That all happens much, much sooner.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Well, this has most of the story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft

tl;dr though, there was basically one guy in Germany who was systematically studying sex, sexuality, and gender, they were doing some of the first hormone therapies, and as the Nazis came to power one of their first targets was the institute and its archives, both to eliminate the "degenerate" knowledge and to track down the various patients and participants in studies.
Like y'know how homosexuals were one of the people put into the camps? That's how they found a lot of them.

Maybe this is true I don't know, but I have to say that it sounds just a bit too convenient to blame the Nazis for putting trans rights back decades, and it sounds just a bit too convenient that there was only one guy studying this. ''Ahead of his time'' does not do this guy justice.

The one thing I do know though is that these ''hormone therapies'' were developed for medical reasons completely separate to gender reassignment surgery so I do feel its inclusion in your list is a bit disingenuous.

It's just a matter of coincidence that the only people that studied it ended up under Nazi control.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I think that we really need to evaluate "Chain of Command" differently in the future.

Picard was really the bad guy here. Gul Madred was the good guy here. Picard was just an evil bigot who refused to accept that they identified as five lights.

For the most part he was just refusing the third party forcing him to say it. Also remember that he did believe at the end