Paranoia Agent

This forum is for discussing Chuck's videos as they are publicly released. And for bashing Neelix, but that's just repeating what I already said.
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Rocketboy1313
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Re: Paranoia Agent

Post by Rocketboy1313 »

Darmani wrote: I think it was my understanding that that actually very accurately broke down the perpetrator. In fact given the fact that they narrowed things down from anyone who could possibly be in the area two very likely a government civil servant agent or even police officer with certain profiles and history
So what's the problem?
This is a really long and informative article on why FBI profiling is basically the huckster-psychic technique of "Cold Reading".
It is written by Malcolm Gladwell so it is surprisingly entertaining to read.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/ ... rous-minds
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FakeGeekGirl
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Re: Paranoia Agent

Post by FakeGeekGirl »

Darmani wrote:
I think it was my understanding that that actually very accurately broke down the perpetrator. In fact given the fact that they narrowed things down from anyone who could possibly be in the area two very likely a government civil servant agent or even police officer with certain profiles and history
So what's the problem?
The problem is that you hear the success stories but not the ones that were inaccurate. If I recall correctly, the profile issued for the Olympic bomber had law enforcement looking in the wrong direction and led to an innocent person being slandered by the media.

The second problem is that a lot of it is actually more intuitive than you would think and can be done by most officers - for instance FBI profilers will usually speculate on the race / appearance of the suspect, which sounds incredible, but the reasoning for it is just based on who can blend into a given area. Let's be honest, a guy who looks shady and grungy and gross and out of place isn't going to get women into his car, especially in a nice neighborhood, just by talking to them, so unless your victims were taken off the side of their road in the middle of nowhere after their cars broke down, it's a good bet your perpetrator is a good looking smooth talker, or at least someone who doesn't look dangerous. Similarly, at a time in which the entire African-American population of a Southern city is on edge and terrified about a possible white supremacist kidnapping, raping, and murdering their children, a shady white man is not going to go unnoticed and no child is going to get in a vehicle with him. The occupation of the perpetrator can be similarly obvious - they're usually not totally specific (I'll get to that in my third point) but you can tell generally what someone's occupation and education level would be based on the MO. Cutting up a human body is actually very hard, so if it's done cleanly that suggests anatomical knowledge which suggests a medical professional or mortician. If certain tools (medical tools like scalpels would further imply a doctor, certain specialized tools would imply an electrician or carpenter) were used on the victim, that likely means those tools were on hand to the perpetrator and indicates either a career that uses those tools or a very serious hobby / fetish. Similarly a knowledge of the inside workings of how investigations work implies a law enforcement officer (but can also just imply a perpetrator that did their homework). I remember in my Intro to Psychology textbook (I was a psychology minor) they cited a really interesting study where several FBI profilers, law enforcement officers, other first responders like paramedics and firefighters, and average citizens were given a list of crime descriptions of actual crimes for which there were convictions and were asked to guess the age, race, religion, occupation, and criminal history of the perpetrators, and these were then checked against the convictions by the researchers. Profilers did better than average citizens, but still were wrong in many instances, and most interestingly, didn't do any better than the law enforcement officers on average, and even the first responders did better than the control group of average citizens (firefighters were, for obvious reasons, fairly adept at profiling arsonists).

Thirdly, profiles are actually usually very general, so they seem to fit very well most of the time. But it's sort of like astrology or the Myers-Briggs test. It seems amazingly fitting, but usually it's not actually that detailed. Like it sounds really amazing when they predict that the serial killer will be a white blue collar worker with a history of violence against women, and then they catch the guy and he is, but that description actually describes a HUGE swath of American men and isn't actually that useful when you get right down to it. Sometimes more specific details come from the MO but still isn't useful - like you might be able to tell the perpetrator has a foot fetish given he attacked only women wearing high heels and cut their feet off and took them shoe and all, but given that that's usually not on anyone's public record and is also a common and usually harmless fetish, it's not useful to the investigation.

With all of that said, I love Criminal Minds too, or did until it got so twisted I had to quit watching because it was giving me nightmares, but I have to keep in mind that it's basically fantasy, like CSI (which I don't like for a lot of the same reasons I overlook in Criminal Minds but what can I say Reid and Morgan are so cute). They have access to a lot of additional tools to help them that real life profilers wouldn't, for one thing - in real life they'd have to get a warrant for Garcia to access half the records she does on the show, and even then a lot of these records for smaller municipalities wouldn't be in electronic format especially if they were any older than a couple of years.
debutakkun73
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Re: Paranoia Agent

Post by debutakkun73 »

the them song is very similar to oingo Boingos nothing bad ever happens to me lyrically. also Paranoia agent delves into the concept of mass hysteria/ also showing characters fantasies and blurs them with reality also used in american dad stanerexiawhere he sees himself as over weight and imagines a fictitious personal trainer then we see reality stan is an immaciated shell of himself
debutakkun73
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Re: Paranoia Agent

Post by debutakkun73 »

the dual life harumi is involved in was also explored in Perfect Blue another satoshi Kon film
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SFDebris
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Re: Paranoia Agent

Post by SFDebris »

Rocketboy1313 wrote:
Darmani wrote: I think it was my understanding that that actually very accurately broke down the perpetrator. In fact given the fact that they narrowed things down from anyone who could possibly be in the area two very likely a government civil servant agent or even police officer with certain profiles and history
So what's the problem?
This is a really long and informative article on why FBI profiling is basically the huckster-psychic technique of "Cold Reading".
It is written by Malcolm Gladwell so it is surprisingly entertaining to read.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/ ... rous-minds
I always think of an episode of Monk when Randy runs up to hand Stottlemeyer a file: "Here's the FBI profilers report on the killer." "Let me see," Stottlemeyer holds the folder up to his temple as if divining, "a white middle aged man who lives alone and has financial problems." Then he puts it away and goes back to what he was doing.
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Rocketboy1313
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Re: Paranoia Agent

Post by Rocketboy1313 »

SFDebris wrote:I always think of an episode of Monk when Randy runs up to hand Stottlemeyer a file: "Here's the FBI profilers report on the killer." "Let me see," Stottlemeyer holds the folder up to his temple as if divining, "a white middle aged man who lives alone and has financial problems." Then he puts it away and goes back to what he was doing.
I think of that one, which is the correct dismissive tone, but then I remember all the episodes of "The Profiler" which portrayed it as being psychic powers done in black and white cut aways. Or in the episode of "The X-Files" with Tombes, where Mulder's old friend steals his profile on the potential killer and passes it off as his own work.... I am just thinking that it was such a bog standard report that it was akin to stealing someone's English Homework. Between that and the lie detector that episode illustrates a couple wrong headed FBI professional staples.
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animalia
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Re: Paranoia Agent

Post by animalia »

SFDebris wrote:
Rocketboy1313 wrote:
Darmani wrote: I think it was my understanding that that actually very accurately broke down the perpetrator. In fact given the fact that they narrowed things down from anyone who could possibly be in the area two very likely a government civil servant agent or even police officer with certain profiles and history
So what's the problem?
This is a really long and informative article on why FBI profiling is basically the huckster-psychic technique of "Cold Reading".
It is written by Malcolm Gladwell so it is surprisingly entertaining to read.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/ ... rous-minds
I always think of an episode of Monk when Randy runs up to hand Stottlemeyer a file: "Here's the FBI profilers report on the killer." "Let me see," Stottlemeyer holds the folder up to his temple as if divining, "a white middle aged man who lives alone and has financial problems." Then he puts it away and goes back to what he was doing.
Have you seen Pysch?
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Re: Paranoia Agent

Post by griffeytrek »

FakeGeekGirl wrote:
Darmani wrote:
(firefighters were, for obvious reasons, fairly adept at profiling arsonists).
This actually falls into the false assumptions behind profiling. No Firefighters are not adept at profiling arsonists for "obvious" reasons. The truth is far less obvious. Just as Police must screen heavily to avoid allowing sociopaths and sadists and other similar control and authority oriented dysfunctionals into their ranks, and Clergy has a hard time detecting and dealing with those seeking a pastoral escape from unusual often deviant or illegal sexual urges (yeah the whole Pedophile Priests thing is Pedophiles join the Priesthood in an attempt to "self medicate" and isolate their urges in a socially acceptable celibate way. It doesn't work.) The Profession of Firefighting has a hidden similar problem with Arsonists. Heck whenever you find an Arson Fire the first suspects that the police look at are any firefighters in the local firehouse with under 1-2 years experience. Firefighting literally attracts arsonists like a moth to the flame. The worst being the "Vanity Pyro's". Those who light fires so they can be the hero. The huge problem that the Fire Service has is that most Arsonists of this type show up in their early to mid teens. Then they hit 18 and their Juvie records get sealed. And on the same day they can apply to the Fire Department. The end result is that most Firefighters with 5+ years of experience have gotten astonishingly good at spotting these little problem children very very quickly. They have learned the subtle tells and behaviors. (They also use sneaky and legally questionable means of discovery. My old Chief was remarkably adept at going out drinking with the county Arson Detective right around application season to run any and all names past the inebriated detective for any trace of Juvie issues, all under the guise of "war stories".) It's not because they put out fires and help investigate arson. It's because they are all watching the new guys to figure out which one has the BIG book of matches. But you can see how one simple seemingly correct fact can lead to a host of false assumptions that make the art of profiling look valid.
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FakeGeekGirl
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Re: Paranoia Agent

Post by FakeGeekGirl »

^ Thank you for the insight. It has been years since I read this text, but as I recall this finding was presented without much comment other than to indicate that people with experience in a field could do some of what profilers could (and even the profilers were inaccurate an astounding percentage of the time). So I was thinking through it as firefighters would have some insight into what kind of people did this when it came to crimes most likely to affect them. But this makes it a lot clearer where that particular insight came from.
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Re: Paranoia Agent

Post by Fuzzy Necromancer »

...wait a sec!

If Lil Slugger is just the dark side of Maromi and the nation's desire to escape/abdicate responsibility, then why they heck was he so scared of a bunch of ghosts? How exactly do they pose a threat to him or his agenda?
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