B5:There all honor lies

[Yukaphile]

Chuck has consistently gone on record in doggedly not turning this into Babylon 5 vs. Deep Space Nine, and I commend him for that. I mean, from all accounts, all it did was further fuel the flames of ran rage back in the day, from B5 fans who felt ripped off and DS9 fans who loved the new Trek show, whereas DS9 made no such overt jabs. And now you know why they had to bring in Lwaxana Troi to try and calm down the nerd wars.

[Nightbeat74]

Surprised there was no mention of the "deep space franchise" swipe. XD

damn it!

[Yukaphile]

It may have been fun, but it was also kind of unprofessional, tbh. But then according to Claudia, JMS has said to an extent it's about embracing your inner teenager, like all those "Up yours!" retorts that has me cringe...

[hammerofglass]

I never understood Lennier's plan in the end. It seems like he's freely swapping between the "public reputation" and "internal code" meanings of honor in a nonsensical way. He would retain honor by helping Ashan "save face" (which is literally just another word for external honor but that's the dialog). This will cause the clan they both belong to, and all it's members, to be irrecoverably disgraced.

So the crux is that he will avoid public disgrace by framing himself for the disgraceful thing, because he didn't tell anybody it was in accordance with a code of moral behavior.

[G-Man]

I was under the impression that the "Deep Space franchise" was all in good fun - I seem to recall Peter David saying something to that effect.

As for the Minbari being a creator's pet, it seems to me that the Minbari are explicitly intended to be seen as hypocritical. Yes, "Minbari do not lie" is made a big deal of, but it is also pretty clearly shown to be B.S. Pretty much, the Minbari are portrayed not so much as societally advanced beings, but as being who see themselves as more culturally advanced than their neighbors, and who see themsleves as superior.

I think that the Minbari are essentially meant to be the Vorlon's pets. Looking at their society it seems that they more than anyone else have embraced the Vorlon philosophy of order.

[PerrySimm]

Always happy to see more B5!

Despite not being strictly a main arc episode, it was memorable and helped establish Sheridan as more than just an expy.

[Yukaphile]

@G-Man Well, it kinda seems like a bad idea with so many passionate fans involved. That's never ended well. Of course, I hardly know what those in charge were saying at the time, but I also do know a lot of actors like Patricia Tallman made it worse, which is why they had to drag in a well-known Trek actress who had publicly said for fans to go check it out. JMS was very mature about it, but I don't know what he said or did past that.

[Aotrs Commander]

I was under the impression that the "Deep Space franchise" was all in good fun - I seem to recall Peter David saying something to that effect.

Wouldn't surprise me if it was, at least from his perspective, given Peter David wrote quite a few (rather good, in my opinion) Star Trek novels (he may have done stuff on the shows at one point, I don't know).



(I still think the very best occurance of that sort good-natured referencing was the tit-for-tat between ever was Xena and Buffy the Vampire Slayer (more so because they were pretty much unrelated), wherein in the latter, during the Halloween you-become-your-costume epieode Willow grumbles about why Buffy couldn't have come dressed as Xena, and not too long afterwards in Xena, someone made a crack about a theatre troop performing Buffus the Bacchae Slayer. Class.)

[S1l3nc3d0g00d]

I never understood Lennier's plan in the end. It seems like he's freely swapping between the "public reputation" and "internal code" meanings of honor in a nonsensical way. He would retain honor by helping Ashan "save face" (which is literally just another word for external honor but that's the dialog). This will cause the clan they both belong to, and all it's members, to be irrecoverably disgraced.

So the crux is that he will avoid public disgrace by framing himself for the disgraceful thing, because he didn't tell anybody it was in accordance with a code of moral behavior.

Quoth the TV Tropes recap page for this episode: "Lennier would retain his personal honor, doing what he knew was right to clear the Captain's [Sheridan's] name, at the knowing sacrifice of his [Lennier's] public honor. That he gets to drag the clan's honor down in flames around himself for their actions is a bonus."

[RobbyB1982]

Well, it still strikes me as contrived. I know the Grey Council was highly secretive, but you'd think after Z'ha'dum, that Sheridan would eventually find out she'd cast that deciding, genocidal vote. And for all we know he did off-screen, I don't think it would have changed anything, but I do think it could have had some kind of commentary that seems to largely be brushed aside by the series. When you go so far as to try and commit ABSOLUTE GENOCIDE, then the names of all those involved should at least be public record. No matter what arrangements the Earth imposed on the "surrendering" Minbari, assuming they imposed any at all. And early on, there's no hint to any conflicts about Earth being uneasy about the names being withheld to who started the war, a war that nearly wiped out their whole species. We focus specifically on the traumatized pilot who blames himself, and playacts as King Arthur. But Delenn, I feel, is too much of a missed opportunity with this, in that the only one to find out is Lennier, who... let's be honest, he wouldn't have thought any less of her with this revelation than Sheridan. It's a wasted opportunity, and inconsistent to her guilt that she would hide it herself, especially once the Shadows and Vorlons were driven out of the galaxy.

According to JMS,Sheriden was never told.
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/master/guide/075.html

"Won't Sheridan be upset when he finds out Delenn ordered the war?"

"Listen, honey, while you were out I went to the store and I bought some new candles, you know how we're always running out, and Lennier took the cat in to be cleaned, and oh, did I mention I was directly responsible for the deaths of two hundred and fifty thousand of your best friends and fellow officers? Pass the sugar."

She'll never tell him.

Because it's over...what would be the point, except to ruin what they have now.

Keep in mind this response is from back when the show was still airing, so maybe he's changed his mind in the 25 years since, but that was his take at the time while the show was white hot in his mind.